April 30, 2024

How Running Can Help You Overcome Depression, with Dr. J.M. Thompson

Have you ever felt trapped in the darkness of depression, unable to escape the torture of your own mind? Many individuals struggle with mental health challenges, seeking relief from the overwhelming emotions and thoughts that consume them. This...

Have you ever felt trapped in the darkness of depression, unable to escape the torture of your own mind?

Many individuals struggle with mental health challenges, seeking relief from the overwhelming emotions and thoughts that consume them. This episode offers a powerful perspective on how engaging in physical activities like running can pave the way towards healing and recovery.

In this episode we'll share the healing potential of exercise, particularly endurance activities that induce a flow state.

Listen to this captivating episode to uncover the life-changing story of how one man's intuitive decision to run saved him from the depths of depression and suicidal thoughts.

Bulleted List of 10 Topics Discussed

  • Battling severe depression and the road to recovery
  • The transformative power of running and endurance activities
  • Finding solace and connection through shared experiences
  • Overcoming stigma and giving voice to the unspeakable
  • The role of nature and immersion in the present moment
  • Building resilience and tolerating difficulty
  • Developing a consistent exercise habit and listening to your body
  • The importance of self-compassion and acknowledging personal pain
  • Cultivating hope and faith in the human capacity for healing
  • Seeking support and resources during times of crisis


Note: This episode was originally published February 8th, 2022.
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Transcript

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following years of depression, ineffective
medication, and therapy that went nowhere.

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J Thompson feared he was falling into
inescapable darkness.

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He decided that death was his only exit
route from the torture of his mind.

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After surviving a suicide attempt,
Thompson got a sudden urge to run during

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an exercise break at the hospital where he
was admitted.

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In this episode, he shares how that run
led him on a path that literally saved his

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life and is now helping others find their
way out of the darkness.

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This is the Fit Mess, conversations with
world -class experts in the fields of

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mental, physical, and emotional health.

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In this episode...

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What running and other endurance
activities can provide is a very real

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embodied kind of template for knowing that
it's possible, rather than run away from

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difficult experience, to turn towards
difficulty and learn to tolerate it.

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Now here are your hosts, Zach and Jeremy.

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Welcome to the Fit Mess, sponsored by
Athletic Greens.

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Thanks for listening while you're doing
whatever it is you're doing right now.

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I'm Zach.

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He's Jeremy.

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We've been through all kinds of struggles
and ended up stronger because of them.

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And we want to help you do the same.

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If you're sick of your own shit and you're
ready to make a change, you're in the

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right place.

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Today, we're sharing the incredible story
of a man who listened to his intuition and

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it literally saved his life.

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Our guest is Dr.

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J Thompson, author of Running is a Kind of
Dreaming.

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His path to better health started the way
it does for many of us, running.

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Your started that way, right, Zach?

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It did start that way.

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My motivation was slightly different.

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Where I was working, they decided to
sponsor everyone running this 5k race one

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afternoon.

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And all I saw on the email that came out
was you get to leave work early.

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That's all I saw.

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And I was like, I am in, I get to take a
day off.

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I don't have to work that day.

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I didn't even realize what I needed to do.

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And at this point I was.

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still smoking and just in really bad
shape, like close to 300 pounds.

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And I signed up for it and then quickly
realized, shit.

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Now you got to run.

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I got it.

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I got to do this thing.

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And I remember that night I went to the Y
and they had an indoor track and it was, I

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think it was nine laps for a mile because
it was such a short track.

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And I got like halfway around the first
lap and was like, what the fuck did I just

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do?

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But then I, I did the lap.

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I did another lap and I did another lap
and I did another lap.

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And it was just in my head.

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I was like, I got to run this thing.

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I got to run this 5k.

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And in the process I quit smoking.

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And then all of a sudden I was, you know,
I wasn't running like eight minute miles

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at the time, but I could do a mile and
then two and then three.

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And I ended up doing the race.

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And then it was like, like we said on a
couple of episodes ago, it was only six

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months later that I got for Christmas.

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I got the water.

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the water belt belt, the water belt for
runners.

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And it was like, wait a minute.

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I'm a runner now.

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Yeah, this is weird.

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And I actually felt really good.

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Like mentally so many things had shifted
and allowed me to grow in like so many

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other parts of my life because I was
moving my body.

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You're started with running and has now
turned into all of the other things you're

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doing crossfit and all the other thousand
biohacking things we've talked about on

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this show.

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I'm in a similar place where.

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you know, I moved a few months ago and in
doing so started doing a lot of walking.

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And then my body was saying walking is not
enough.

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Why don't you try running?

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And so I started running and I noticed how
how good I felt afterward.

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And then what was interesting is, you
know, I battle depression, we talked about

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that on the show a lot.

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And I would feel it starting to sort of
flare up and become this this thing that

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just needed to move.

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And

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I decided one day to just try and run
through it, just put on some shoes, go

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outside and just try and run, just try and
move that energy.

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And it totally worked.

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I just went for like a 20 minute run, just
burned all of that energy out and felt

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better.

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And I repeated that again and again.

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And after a few weeks, I was noticing that
when I could feel it coming on, that just

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by finding another use for that energy, I
was able to sort of keep it at bay.

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Now it doesn't work every time.

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There are plenty of times when I go and
run and I'm like, well, now I'm exhausted

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and I feel like shit.

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That sounds like most days for me.

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Yeah.

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But now I know I've got in my back pocket
another tool that when I feel it coming

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on, it's at least one way I can sort of
battle back the mental demons that are

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screaming so loudly.

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Yeah.

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It really, you know, I guess it shouldn't
surprise me anymore, but it still does

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surprise me how, you know, on the rare
occasion when I do stop moving,

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for like a week, whether it's an injury or
just something comes up where I don't get

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to the gym or I don't just move my body in
the bare minimum that it needs, how

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quickly that darkness can come back and
just suffocate me.

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And again, I don't know why, but it always
surprises me when I stop moving my body,

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like how quickly the demons come in for
sure.

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What also surprises me,

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Is when I eat like crap and I don't feed
my body the nutrients that it needs, how

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quickly those same demons can come up.

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So I love taking athletic greens every
single day, just to make sure that those

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demons don't attack me.

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I started taking athletic greens because I
really needed to have a supplement that

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tasted great, gave me all the things that
I needed.

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And I didn't want to have to take 10 pills
a day or spend all of my time cooking all

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the meals.

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I try and get my nutrients from food, but
let's face it, we don't.

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get everything we need every day from
food.

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So, athetic greens was a great solution
for me.

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It tastes great, gives me everything I
need for more energy, better gut health,

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optimized immune system.

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It has less than a gram of sugar, and
there's no nasty chemicals or artificial

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anything, and it actually does taste good.

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And for what you get, it's less than $3 a
day.

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And right now is the time to incorporate
better health, and athetic greens is a

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perfect start.

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To make it easy,

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free one -year supply of immune

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All you have to do is visit athleticgreens
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health and pick up the ultimate daily
nutritional insurance.

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That link will be on the show notes and
it's plastered all over our website at

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thefitmass .com.

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So we've shared how we've used running or
just moving our bodies in ways to help

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battle

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not only physical fitness challenges, but
mental challenges as well.

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That's why I was excited to read the book,
Running is a Kind of Dreaming.

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It is written by Dr.

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J Thompson.

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In it, he shares just a remarkable story
about his own battle with depression and a

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suicide attempt.

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And I recently got to talk to him about
his story and the moment he heard

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something from inside him telling him to
run before it's too late.

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This is back in February of 2005.

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So after

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in the wake of untreated child trauma and
many years of cyclical depression, which

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really kind of unraveled in my late
twenties, early thirties.

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I became suicidal.

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I attempted suicide.

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I was hospitalized in San Francisco in a,
a lob psychiatric unit.

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One day the staff took myself and my
fellow patients up to the rooftop

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basketball court for some exercise.

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I knew that a few short minutes I was
going to be back down below, essentially

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incarcerated for my own safety.

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When this impulse sees me to move my body
to run.

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And I did, that's what I did.

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I started to sprint back and forth on the
basketball court.

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And after many, many months of being
really horrifically immobilized by very

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severe depression, I'd felt some sort of.

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spark of aliveness in that moment.

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Of course, it was a long path towards
recovery from there, but it did, you know,

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some sort of, it was some sort of glimmer
of light in the midst of what seems sort

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of inescapable darkness at that point.

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So where, let's talk a little bit about
the origin of that darkness.

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Tell me, tell me where the sort of the
root of that depression came from.

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Well, sure.

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So I grew up in a family affected by
severe mental illness.

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So my mother caught with bipolar disorder
and periods of psychosis.

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My father with severe depression that
happened really at the same time in my

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teens, which as you might imagine was
confusing to say the least for a 14 year

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old in England at that time.

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No one talked about mental health or
depression.

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I was really on my own with
incomprehensible experiences.

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also incomprehensible, very difficult
feelings on the inside that I cut with for

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years by essentially trying to ignore
those feelings or self medicating them

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through drugs and alcohol.

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Yeah.

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It turns out that if you try and run away
from, from difficult feelings or traumatic

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memories, you know, that works as they say
it until it doesn't work.

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And at some point I sort of had nowhere
left to run and I was stuck with really

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intolerable feelings.

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Hence the kind of.

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process that wound me up in the hospital
and the recovery process that slowly began

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from there.

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So I'm curious about that recovery process
up until running.

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I understand medication, a bunch of things
were tried to combat it and those didn't

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work so well.

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That was my experience.

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And I want to be clear that psychotherapy,
of course, it can be helpful.

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Psychiatric medication can be helpful.

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I'm a clinical psychologist now.

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I'm a psychotherapist.

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And there's certain kinds of therapy that
have been developed, especially recently

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for

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traumatic experience that really can be
helpful.

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My experience at the time, that was all
those years ago, was that whatever I was

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getting was not really getting to the kind
of emotional core of the experiences I'd

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endured as a child and young person
running.

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I stumbled upon and what that provided,
looking back, the book goes into the

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story, it's a kind of narrative, it's
pretty much a narrative driven book.

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what running provided me was a way of kind
of bypassing the thinking mind and getting

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into my body and accessing psychological
states and emotional states that helped me

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kind of really reorganize myself
emotionally and ultimately come to terms

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with the traumatic experiences that I had
grown up with when I was younger.

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I had something similar.

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My...

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sort of wellness journey, if you will,
started on a bike, I was trying to treat

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some knee issues I had, I got on a bike
and was pedaling just to try and deal with

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my knees.

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And I found that sort of just need to be
in the moment to survive, really drove me

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into meditation, it drove me to a much
deeper association with physical fitness

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and or physical exercise, and emotional
health.

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What is it about running or biking?

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What is it about these sort of endurance
performance, athletics that

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does unlock that in our brains and help us
treat those illnesses.

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Well, I think it's working on a number of
levels.

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So I think the experience of depression,
trauma, anxiety, it's, it has many levels

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to this, but one, one core aspect is it's
quite challenging to stay in the here and

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now the mind tends to either be
preoccupied with feelings or memories from

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something that happened before.

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or thoughts or anticipation is about the,
the something dreadful on the horizon.

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When you're running or biking or swimming
or climbing or dancing or whatever the

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medium is, yoga, meditation, it's a
sensory way of coming into right now.

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So that's one piece.

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Another piece of this, which is important,
I would want listeners, viewers to know is

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the experience of trauma or depression is
of a kind of

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loss of predictability and experience,
right?

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It's a feeling of kind of losing control
of your moods and your kind of sense of

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where you are in the world.

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What, especially experiences like running
provide is a way of, of kind of creating a

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sort of predictability and experience,
right?

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It's very simple on one level, right?

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Left, right, left, right, left.

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On the other hand, at the same time, you
are creating new connections internally.

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within parts of the brain that support
mood and memory in a positive way.

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You're also, it's important to people
coping with depression where the tendency

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can be to isolate and kind of feel
paralyzed.

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You're doing the opposite of that.

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You're getting outside, you're moving
forward.

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And that literal forward movement can end
up being a sort of impetus for forward

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movement in a broader sense.

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Forward movement in your actual life, not
just on the trail or track.

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part of my runs lately, I've noticed
midway through before the sort of runners

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high kicks in or whatever, there is this
message, I guess sense of this is hard,

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and I'm getting through it.

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And just sort of the practice of doing
that, I'm able to then attach to

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depression, that's also hard.

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And if I can get through this, I can get
through that.

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Is there sort of an element of that?

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Or am I making that up?

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00:13:45,322 --> 00:13:50,318
Well, I think that what running and other
endurance activities can provide,

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is a very real embodied kind of template
for knowing that it's possible rather than

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00:13:57,978 --> 00:14:05,538
run away from difficult experience to turn
towards difficulty and learn to tolerate

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it.

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00:14:06,118 --> 00:14:09,178
Certainly that would also be the through
line with meditation.

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The point of meditation is to allow what
emerges in consciousness without either

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attaching to it too much.

255
00:14:16,590 --> 00:14:19,450
or wishing it to go away, right?

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Being with experience.

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00:14:21,090 --> 00:14:27,210
Certainly, there's a through line that the
one exercise running other forms of

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exercise could provide.

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00:14:28,010 --> 00:14:34,050
And I talk about my experience in the book
is a way of turning towards difficulty and

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knowing that it's survivable.

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In your case, it seems like there was
almost an outside voice or something

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00:14:41,730 --> 00:14:43,590
encouraging you to run.

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For other people, maybe it's CrossFit,
lifting heavy things, whatever.

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Does the method of exercise matter?

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00:14:50,090 --> 00:14:53,390
Does it matter if you're just lifting
heavy things in the gym versus going for

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longer runs or whatever it is?

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00:14:55,070 --> 00:14:59,130
Or does it, is it really just the exertion
and moving that energy?

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Certainly all forms of exercise can be
beneficial in many ways.

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My sense is there is something specific
about kinds of exercise that induce

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something like a flow state.

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So it's not only the aerobic activation
and the endorphins, it's a state of mind,

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hence the title running as a kind of
dreaming where you went to essentially a

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kind of waking dream.

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So there's something about the rhythmic
predictable motion of left, right, left,

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right, and the sense of sort of hypnotic
merger with the activity, but also the

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experience of moving ultimately what can
feel like an almost effortless state.

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in the natural world.

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There is something about that that is
unique.

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So runners will adense by with that,
swimmers, climbers, skiers, snowboarders,

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there's something there that across those
activities of a kind of waking dream state

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that can be kind of profoundly healing, I
think.

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00:16:01,078 --> 00:16:02,108
I was going to ask you about that.

283
00:16:02,108 --> 00:16:06,558
Does it matter if I'm on a treadmill or if
I'm on a trail or a road?

284
00:16:06,558 --> 00:16:08,230
Does it make a difference?

285
00:16:08,302 --> 00:16:09,722
I think it does make a difference.

286
00:16:09,722 --> 00:16:14,182
I have certainly done workouts on
treadmills and of course, from a pure

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00:16:14,182 --> 00:16:16,542
fitness point of view, that can be great.

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00:16:16,542 --> 00:16:20,742
You can put it up to six minute mile and
do a good workout.

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00:16:21,022 --> 00:16:25,702
And if that's, if that, if your goal is in
that very sort of narrowly circumscribed

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00:16:25,702 --> 00:16:31,142
sense of getting fit, so to speak, then
the treadmill is, could be awesome.

291
00:16:31,142 --> 00:16:36,352
If what you're looking at is more
emotional, spiritual, existential.

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I do sense that there is something about
being out in nature in a forest trail.

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00:16:42,998 --> 00:16:48,218
Of course, we all have different levels of
access to green spaces based on where we

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live and how safe that feels to you based
on your kind of social location and so

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00:16:52,178 --> 00:16:52,818
forth.

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00:16:52,818 --> 00:16:56,998
But to the extent it's possible, if you
could be out in nature and have that

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00:16:56,998 --> 00:17:04,058
experience of moving through a natural
physical environment, there's an actual,

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00:17:04,058 --> 00:17:04,685
there's an

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00:17:04,685 --> 00:17:09,485
added dimensions about beyond just the
physicality of running itself, I think.

300
00:17:09,485 --> 00:17:13,785
Aside from the sort of healing part of
this journey for you, the pain of being in

301
00:17:13,785 --> 00:17:17,805
a suicidal depressive state, you reveal
that in the book.

302
00:17:17,805 --> 00:17:19,985
How hard was that to put into words?

303
00:17:19,985 --> 00:17:24,225
Because I know that I've been with my wife
for 20 years and I don't know that I have

304
00:17:24,225 --> 00:17:28,635
yet articulated what it means to be in
that state.

305
00:17:28,654 --> 00:17:31,674
How challenging was it to find the words
to put on paper for that?

306
00:17:31,674 --> 00:17:33,154
Well, it does take a while.

307
00:17:33,154 --> 00:17:38,094
This book was around 20 years, ultimately,
in Genesis.

308
00:17:38,094 --> 00:17:44,354
And it's precisely because of the issue
you raised that the experience of the

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00:17:44,354 --> 00:17:51,214
descent into suicidal depression and
emergence from it really does push the

310
00:17:51,214 --> 00:17:56,206
mind to places that are sort of outside of
concepts or language that we have.

311
00:17:56,206 --> 00:18:00,106
And, you know, it took me a really long
time, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

312
00:18:00,106 --> 00:18:05,106
of drafts to find language for an
experience that is sort of really at the

313
00:18:05,106 --> 00:18:07,066
limits of language.

314
00:18:07,106 --> 00:18:12,606
I ultimately did want to do that though,
because my sense is that, of course

315
00:18:12,606 --> 00:18:15,606
there's openness, more openness now around
mental health.

316
00:18:15,606 --> 00:18:21,366
There's still, my sense is a great deal of
silence around, suicidality, suicide

317
00:18:21,366 --> 00:18:24,686
itself in particular, partly because of
stigma.

318
00:18:24,686 --> 00:18:28,146
But I think also because of the issue
race, that it's really hard to know how to

319
00:18:28,146 --> 00:18:30,766
even put that experience into words.

320
00:18:30,766 --> 00:18:35,806
My hope is by doing this for readers,
there'll be a sense in kind of going with

321
00:18:35,806 --> 00:18:40,826
this journey in me of going into the abyss
of depression and out the other side of a

322
00:18:40,826 --> 00:18:46,166
sense, hopefully of some kind of solace or
connection and knowing that if you're

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00:18:46,166 --> 00:18:49,706
going through something now, you know,
someone who's going through something now,

324
00:18:49,706 --> 00:18:52,046
you know, others have been in this place.

325
00:18:52,046 --> 00:18:53,870
There is in fact a way.

326
00:18:53,870 --> 00:18:59,790
of navigating this sort of hell -like
mental terrain that is, from which there

327
00:18:59,790 --> 00:19:03,710
is a pathway towards a recovery and
wellbeing.

328
00:19:04,830 --> 00:19:08,570
The trauma that you talk about, and I was,
and I'm correct me if I'm wrong.

329
00:19:08,570 --> 00:19:10,540
I understand that you're currently working
with veterans.

330
00:19:10,540 --> 00:19:11,470
You're right.

331
00:19:11,470 --> 00:19:16,470
Trauma is a tricky thing for me because I
grew up with sort of typical garden

332
00:19:16,470 --> 00:19:19,610
variety alcoholism in the family trauma as
a kid.

333
00:19:19,610 --> 00:19:23,182
And, and it, I have pretty serious issues
with depression.

334
00:19:23,182 --> 00:19:25,442
my of my own, just from that.

335
00:19:25,442 --> 00:19:28,742
And so I always feel guilty when I'm
trying to give someone advice about their

336
00:19:28,742 --> 00:19:33,922
trauma, when it's much more severe, when
it's PTSD, some sort of abuse.

337
00:19:33,922 --> 00:19:35,742
How are there levels?

338
00:19:35,742 --> 00:19:40,882
Does it matter the the trauma in terms of
the result of depression?

339
00:19:40,882 --> 00:19:42,052
Yes and no.

340
00:19:42,052 --> 00:19:45,402
I mean, what I would always say to people
who I'm working with in therapy, when

341
00:19:45,402 --> 00:19:50,022
precisely this point is made, some sort of
comparison is, you know, there's a saying

342
00:19:50,022 --> 00:19:52,366
in the AA and 12 step world,

343
00:19:52,366 --> 00:19:54,526
compare and despair, right?

344
00:19:54,526 --> 00:19:59,686
If you, and the analogy I often will
invoke in describing what I mean here is

345
00:19:59,686 --> 00:20:05,166
if you break your leg and that's pretty
painful and you end up in hospital next to

346
00:20:05,166 --> 00:20:07,606
someone who has two broken legs.

347
00:20:07,606 --> 00:20:11,666
If you look across and say, I have no
right to be in pain because look at that

348
00:20:11,666 --> 00:20:12,266
guy.

349
00:20:12,266 --> 00:20:16,266
That will be a sort of, that comparison
wouldn't serve you.

350
00:20:16,266 --> 00:20:19,758
However, if you look across to the person
with two broken legs,

351
00:20:19,758 --> 00:20:22,238
And it's the sort of seed of compassion.

352
00:20:22,238 --> 00:20:27,198
And now like, you know what, suffering is
a sort of universal human frailty and it's

353
00:20:27,198 --> 00:20:29,898
the seed of sort of compassion and
connection.

354
00:20:29,898 --> 00:20:34,238
Then you can look across at others, but I
would always discourage people from saying

355
00:20:34,238 --> 00:20:40,318
that your pain is less significant because
you didn't serve on the front line in Iraq

356
00:20:40,318 --> 00:20:45,198
or whatever, pick your kind of whatever
your idea of the prototypical trauma is,

357
00:20:45,198 --> 00:20:49,134
your experience, your experience and it's
worthy of.

358
00:20:49,134 --> 00:20:54,634
of being cared for and attended to just as
much as anyone else is.

359
00:20:54,914 --> 00:20:58,474
There's a lot of great messages that I
think anyone can pull from your book, but

360
00:20:58,474 --> 00:21:01,954
whether I'm someone battling depression or
mental illness of some sort, or I know

361
00:21:01,954 --> 00:21:05,373
someone who is, what do you hope that
people, when they are done with the book

362
00:21:05,373 --> 00:21:08,114
that they've taken from that experience?

363
00:21:08,254 --> 00:21:11,814
My aim is to install hope, ultimately.

364
00:21:11,814 --> 00:21:16,694
What compelled me to write this is, as you
kind of alluded to, it's not

365
00:21:16,694 --> 00:21:18,286
straightforward to...

366
00:21:18,286 --> 00:21:22,086
talk about these issues was a long time in
the making.

367
00:21:22,086 --> 00:21:29,726
My sense is by giving voice to experiences
that were unspeakable and deeply horrific

368
00:21:29,726 --> 00:21:35,606
as I went through them and recovered from
them, that for the reader embarking on

369
00:21:35,606 --> 00:21:42,146
this journey of following the story as I
evoke it from the inside, there will be a

370
00:21:42,146 --> 00:21:46,118
feeling of hope and solace in knowing that

371
00:21:46,126 --> 00:21:52,986
Even the worst experiences that are
possible, there is some kind of pathway

372
00:21:52,986 --> 00:21:56,806
from those experiences towards wellbeing.

373
00:21:56,806 --> 00:22:04,326
And ultimately, I really do have faith in
the fundamental human capacity to recover

374
00:22:04,326 --> 00:22:06,946
even from our deepest wounds.

375
00:22:06,946 --> 00:22:11,706
And that's really what I want, what my
heart's desire is for folks reading this

376
00:22:11,706 --> 00:22:13,926
book to take away from him.

377
00:22:14,126 --> 00:22:17,306
If someone is hearing this or they've read
your book and they want to start running

378
00:22:17,306 --> 00:22:21,146
and they want to take on some sort of an
endurance thing to battle their mental

379
00:22:21,146 --> 00:22:24,966
illness, how do you start this without
hurting yourself, without biting off more

380
00:22:24,966 --> 00:22:25,986
than you can chew?

381
00:22:25,986 --> 00:22:28,446
What's a simple way to pick up this
practice?

382
00:22:28,446 --> 00:22:31,966
Well, I'd say that even a little bit goes
a long way.

383
00:22:31,966 --> 00:22:40,006
And I would encourage newcomers to running
to think less about duration and more

384
00:22:40,006 --> 00:22:43,342
about consistency, about building.

385
00:22:43,342 --> 00:22:44,922
a habit.

386
00:22:45,002 --> 00:22:49,662
So if you're just starting and you have no
background in this at all, if you, if you

387
00:22:49,662 --> 00:22:57,002
can get out for 20 minutes, three times a
week and really listen to your body and

388
00:22:57,002 --> 00:23:03,502
trust your own judgment and know that the
capacity to get stronger, you know, builds

389
00:23:03,502 --> 00:23:05,482
it's, this is not overnight.

390
00:23:05,482 --> 00:23:10,022
This is months and years of gradually
developing the physical and mental

391
00:23:10,022 --> 00:23:12,846
capacity to go longer and further.

392
00:23:12,846 --> 00:23:17,566
And listen to your body, learn to take
care of yourself, know that you are

393
00:23:17,566 --> 00:23:21,146
ultimately an expert on yourself.

394
00:23:21,146 --> 00:23:27,526
And listen to your body's signals and try
to become a skilled and attentive reader

395
00:23:27,526 --> 00:23:29,406
to what you're hearing.

396
00:23:29,506 --> 00:23:31,206
And how much are you running now?

397
00:23:31,206 --> 00:23:34,786
Because I'm at about the 20 minutes, three
times a week or so.

398
00:23:34,786 --> 00:23:37,186
You're running a lot more than that now.

399
00:23:37,486 --> 00:23:38,094
Well,

400
00:23:38,094 --> 00:23:41,654
You know, I have done these very long
events, including the main experience

401
00:23:41,654 --> 00:23:46,514
described in the book, which is running
205 miles nonstop around Lake Tahoe over

402
00:23:46,514 --> 00:23:47,814
96 hours.

403
00:23:47,814 --> 00:23:50,434
I haven't done that kind of run for a
little while.

404
00:23:50,434 --> 00:23:53,434
It's not been many events over the course
of the pandemic.

405
00:23:53,434 --> 00:23:59,534
A couple of weeks ago, I was back in Tahoe
doing a 30 mile run in the Marins and it

406
00:23:59,534 --> 00:24:00,314
was awesome.

407
00:24:00,314 --> 00:24:01,074
That's incredible.

408
00:24:01,074 --> 00:24:03,774
I hoped one day to reach that point.

409
00:24:03,774 --> 00:24:05,774
And I guess sort of just last point.

410
00:24:05,774 --> 00:24:10,274
as much as you've done this and from as
dark a place you started, how healed are

411
00:24:10,274 --> 00:24:10,454
you?

412
00:24:10,454 --> 00:24:13,694
Have you beaten it or is it still a daily
battle?

413
00:24:14,594 --> 00:24:19,094
No, I mean, in order to have gotten to the
point where I felt like I could write this

414
00:24:19,094 --> 00:24:25,814
book, I had to have focused for quite a
long time on recovery and healing.

415
00:24:25,814 --> 00:24:31,334
So the experiences described in the book
are primarily things I went through as a

416
00:24:31,334 --> 00:24:33,358
teenager and then...

417
00:24:33,358 --> 00:24:38,218
The suicidal crisis I went through was
really 2005 to 2006.

418
00:24:38,218 --> 00:24:44,458
So the subsequent 15 years focused on
sobriety, recovery, therapy, a lot of

419
00:24:44,458 --> 00:24:45,218
running.

420
00:24:45,218 --> 00:24:49,408
I trained, I started training as a
psychologist, a complete training.

421
00:24:49,408 --> 00:24:54,018
And it was only after all of that, that I
sort of allowed myself to look back again

422
00:24:54,018 --> 00:24:59,118
and then think that there would be value
for others in hearing my story and knowing

423
00:24:59,118 --> 00:25:01,134
the recovery is possible.

424
00:25:01,134 --> 00:25:05,434
So of course, you know, there are ups and
downs in life, but I'm very fortunate and

425
00:25:05,434 --> 00:25:11,114
grateful to say now that I've been in long
-term remission from serious depression

426
00:25:11,114 --> 00:25:15,354
for about 13 years now.

427
00:25:15,434 --> 00:25:16,514
That's incredible.

428
00:25:16,514 --> 00:25:20,004
Thank you so much for your time and for
your story and for your advice and wisdom.

429
00:25:20,004 --> 00:25:22,194
Where can we learn more about you in the
book?

430
00:25:22,334 --> 00:25:30,328
So the book website is www
.runningisacountofdreaming .com.

431
00:25:30,382 --> 00:25:34,942
At that website, there's stuff more about
the book, a little bit about me.

432
00:25:34,942 --> 00:25:39,542
There are links to buy the book at the
various retail options.

433
00:25:39,542 --> 00:25:45,662
And there's also a list of resources for
anyone in crisis right now, either

434
00:25:45,662 --> 00:25:50,702
themselves or for, if you'll try to think
about resources for a friend or a loved

435
00:25:50,702 --> 00:25:56,162
one, there's a list of national helplines
with the 1 -800 numbers and websites.

436
00:25:56,162 --> 00:25:59,790
If you need support, those organizations
are there.

437
00:25:59,790 --> 00:26:04,830
to help you if you need them and they're
available 24 seven right now.

438
00:26:05,350 --> 00:26:06,170
That was Dr.

439
00:26:06,170 --> 00:26:09,450
J Thompson, author of Running is a Kind of
Dreaming.

440
00:26:09,450 --> 00:26:14,350
You can find all those links in the show
notes for this episode at thefitmass .com.

441
00:26:14,350 --> 00:26:18,510
A lot of great takeaways for you in that
interview, starting with just listening to

442
00:26:18,510 --> 00:26:22,070
your own intuition, listening to that
voice that calls you to action, that calls

443
00:26:22,070 --> 00:26:24,930
you to do something and to then actually
do it.

444
00:26:24,930 --> 00:26:26,490
That is the key part of all of this.

445
00:26:26,490 --> 00:26:29,242
Whatever podcast you're listening to, book
you're reading,

446
00:26:29,262 --> 00:26:32,022
The key is to actually take action on
whatever the thing is.

447
00:26:32,022 --> 00:26:37,201
I love the portrayal that he gave there of
how relative pain is.

448
00:26:37,201 --> 00:26:41,302
You can have a broken leg and if the
person next to you has two broken legs,

449
00:26:41,302 --> 00:26:42,812
you can still be in pain.

450
00:26:42,812 --> 00:26:43,712
That's okay.

451
00:26:43,712 --> 00:26:46,042
It's all right to acknowledge it and to
care for it.

452
00:26:46,042 --> 00:26:46,422
Yep.

453
00:26:46,422 --> 00:26:51,118
But the statistical probability of being
in that position is kind of unlikely.

454
00:26:51,118 --> 00:26:54,298
Kind of unlikely, but just as a helpful
way to think of it.

455
00:26:54,298 --> 00:26:55,167
No, I know it's a really good image.

456
00:26:55,167 --> 00:26:59,418
When you're feeling guilty about, my
pain's not as bad as Hank over there.

457
00:26:59,418 --> 00:27:01,178
Well, it's okay.

458
00:27:01,178 --> 00:27:02,418
You can still acknowledge your pain.

459
00:27:02,418 --> 00:27:03,078
It's fine.

460
00:27:03,078 --> 00:27:04,118
Yeah, you're absolutely right.

461
00:27:04,118 --> 00:27:05,948
I do acknowledge my pain every single day.

462
00:27:05,948 --> 00:27:09,778
At the gym, I cut my leg like four times
on one of the exercise bikes because we

463
00:27:09,778 --> 00:27:12,198
had to get on and off, on and off, on and
off.

464
00:27:12,238 --> 00:27:17,138
And afterwards I noticed that I'd cut, I
have four cuts on my legs and I sent a

465
00:27:17,138 --> 00:27:21,006
text to the coach and said, I cut my leg
four times on that.

466
00:27:21,006 --> 00:27:24,006
fucking bike today, but I woke up this
morning.

467
00:27:24,006 --> 00:27:25,266
So it's a great day.

468
00:27:25,266 --> 00:27:27,726
Very nice.

469
00:27:27,726 --> 00:27:32,016
And good for you for taking action,
actually doing something.

470
00:27:32,016 --> 00:27:35,826
And I hope that this story has inspired
you to do something, whether it's going to

471
00:27:35,826 --> 00:27:40,066
a therapist, starting running, whatever it
is, but the inspiration isn't enough.

472
00:27:40,066 --> 00:27:41,206
The story isn't enough.

473
00:27:41,206 --> 00:27:42,266
You have to act.

474
00:27:42,266 --> 00:27:46,846
You have to actually do something in order
to grow and overcome the things that are

475
00:27:46,846 --> 00:27:47,846
holding you back.

476
00:27:48,558 --> 00:27:52,178
And don't let the conversation about
managing your mental health end there.

477
00:27:52,178 --> 00:27:55,838
Join us in our Facebook group where you
and fellow FitMess listeners can find

478
00:27:55,838 --> 00:27:59,178
support, take part in monthly challenges,
and create accountability to reach your

479
00:27:59,178 --> 00:27:59,858
goals.

480
00:27:59,858 --> 00:28:03,458
That link is also at our website,
thefitmess .com, where we will be back

481
00:28:03,458 --> 00:28:05,218
next week with a brand new episode.

482
00:28:05,218 --> 00:28:06,458
Thanks for listening.

483
00:28:06,458 --> 00:28:07,538
See you, everyone.

484
00:28:36,942 --> 00:28:42,282
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485
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J. M. THOMPSON Profile Photo

J. M. THOMPSON

Author of RUNNING IS A KIND OF DREAMING

J.M. Thompson was born in England. He holds a BA in English literature from Oxford University and a doctorate in clinical psychology. He completed his psychology training at the University of California, San Francisco, where he conducted research on the brain mechanisms of meditation and the physiology of trauma. He is also an ordained Zen practitioner and certified yoga teacher. He has finished over 40 ultramarathons, and multiple solo adventure runs in the Sierra Nevada, the Grand Canyon, and Death Valley. Thompson currently serves as a staff psychologist at the United States Department of Veterans Affairs. He lives in San Francisco with his wife and two children