In this episode of The Fit Mess Podcast, we dive deep into the paradigm shift that's happening in the world of mental health care. And who better to guide us through this transformative period than Dr. Dave Rabin, a medical doctor, and neuroscientist...
In this episode of The Fit Mess Podcast, we dive deep into the paradigm shift that's happening in the world of mental health care. And who better to guide us through this transformative period than Dr. Dave Rabin, a medical doctor, and neuroscientist with a passion for exploring the interconnectivity of our physical, emotional, and spiritual health?
Dr. Rabin starts off by debunking the traditional approach to mental health care, which treats only the symptoms of mental illness and ignores the root cause. But the latest research suggests that a more holistic approach is necessary to promote healing and well-being. And this is where psychedelics come in. Dr. Rabin explores the potential of psychedelic-assisted therapy to have a significant impact on depression, anxiety, and PTSD.
But Dr. Rabin's vision of mental health care goes beyond psychedelics. Personalized medicine is also key, as there is no one-size-fits-all approach to mental health care. And technology is playing an increasingly critical role, with Dr. Rabin's own company, Apollo Neuroscience, developing a wearable device that uses low-frequency vibration therapy to help people manage stress and improve their mood.
What emerges from our conversation with Dr. Rabin is a vision of mental health care that is more nuanced, holistic, and individualized than ever before. It's an exciting time to be exploring this field, and Dr. Rabin's new podcast, "The Psychedelic Report," promises to be a valuable resource for anyone interested in the latest developments in psychedelic medicine.
So join us as we delve into the world of mental health care, with Dr. Dave Rabin as our guide. You won't want to miss this episode of The Fit Mess Podcast!
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The Psychedelic Report Podcast
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Jeremy: You suffer from depression, anxiety, ptsd, or some other mental health condition. You have tried pill after pill treatment after treatment. None of them have worked.
Zach: Today we're gonna talk about why psychedelics may be the treatment you've been looking for.
Jeremy: Our guest is Dr. Dave Rabin from Apollo Neuroscience and from the psychedelic report.
So, Zach, as you just mentioned, anxiety, depression. These are things that you and I have wrestled with most of our lives. There are, , far deeper conditions, mental health-wise, , that many people suffer from. Ptsd, T S D, things like that. And I hesitate to use the, the term magic pill, but we may be as close to a magic pill as we'll ever get.
Zach: [00:01:00] That's right. But the cool thing about this magic pill compared to all of the other pills, all the other pills are, are very good at masking the symptoms. Right? They, they take it away that it doesn't really fix the underlying cause. , and what I really, truly enjoy about the psychedelic world, and again, this is speaking with.
Very little experience from healing with psychedelics. , other than maybe some college, uh, rampages,
maybe, maybe a little set tonight. Boredom, uh, in the high school years. Right,
Zach: oh, it wasn't boring, but, um, yes. , but this magic pill, right? The, or if, if we're calling it a magico, right? It, it really doesn't. Mask anything. It doesn't go in and fix the symptoms. It really just opens your mind up so that you can go in and do the healing that you need to do that's causing the symptoms.
So it gets right to the root of the problem. It really allows you to go in there. But you know, as, as Dr. Dave says it it's not [00:02:00] necessarily dangerous. But this is something like, we talk about coaches all the time. Like, oh, you wanna lose weight? Go get a coach. Oh, you wanna be mindful?
Go get a coach. Oh, you wanna do X? Go get a coach. and it's usually a suggestion, right? We know that everyone can do all of those things on their own and research things on the internet, but this one, this one, go get a coach. Really go get a coach who knows what they're doing , and have them walk you through it and have them.
Help you through it. If you're truly interested in unlocking your brain to the point where you can go in and heal some drama and get rid of all those symptoms, get a coach. Get somebody to help you.
Jeremy: Well, also just because you don't wanna waste the experience, I mean, in my also very, very, very limited experience. Had I worked with somebody who knew what they were doing, I would've gotten more out of it. You know, I, I, I spent a weekend playing Tetris and had a pretty good time. Right? Like, that's, that's about as far as it went for me.
Uh, there were, there were moments when I realized like, wow. I'm like, I'm, I'm like just smiling like an idiot for no reason. Like what's the deal with this? [00:03:00] But had I, , worked with somebody who knew proper dosage, the best ways to use it, how to guide those feelings into a way that goes deeper and uproots some of that, uh, trauma, some of those things, it could have been a much more, , uh, important thing than just, you know, kind of a, a hangout weekend.
So there's just so many reasons to work with somebody, and I mean that in a very real and legally binding sense. Yeah, don't play around with this. This is not something to, to just mess around with on your own if you want to have the true healing benefits.
Zach: So you had a pretty fun weekend I've read. A whole lot of papers watched a whole lot of documentaries. So I know a little bit about this, but I don't have that intimate knowledge. I'm not an expert. I know very, very surface level stuff. So let's just jump right into it. , today we have Dr. Dave Rabin on the show. He's a psychiatrist and a neuroscientist. And a co-founder of Apollo Neuro, the, , devices that Jeremy and I both wear on our wrists and ankles that activate our nervous system. But he has a new podcast looking [00:04:00] at something a little bit different. It's called the Psychedelic Report, and we started off by just asking him why now was the time. To do this type of a podcast.
You know, part of being a, a physician , and being a, a caregiver, especially once we start to enter the level of senior caregiver, like doctor, , nurse practitioner.
And folks who are really run, you know, kind of as a psychologist would fit in this category too. Folks who are really, you know, running the clinical programming of how do we deliver care and how do we steer care delivery to other people and in, in our communities more effectively. There's always been in the history of medicine this.
Triple path, right? There's the actual delivery of care. How do we practice medicine? Then there's the how do we teach the practice of medicine to others, and then there's the how do we research the new and create the opportunities for us to ask questions that are. Hard questions that may be [00:05:00] uncomfortable because they might question the roots of our understanding of different things, which can be vulnerable and and disconcerting at times.
But how do we create the safe space to ask those really hard questions to say, Hey, if our treatments for X aren't working, maybe our idea of X is not quite all the way there. Let's try to think about X in a different way. And so then that creates the research fertile ground for research and actually new developments in medicine so that neither the teaching what we teach and what we know, And what we practice and how we heal.
None of that stagnates because research keeps it going. Right? And so these three elements have to constantly be in balance with each other. For in, in historically speaking, for thousands of years in clinical medicine, but especially in the last couple hundred years of modern clinical medicine, this has been the way we've been taught and how we've been taught to practice includes these three pillars, research, teaching, and clinical practice.
Over the last 30 or 40 years, there's been this very strange thing that's happened in Western medicine where. Doctors and these higher level caregivers have been relegated to [00:06:00] almost like factory workers within the business of the hospital or the medical system. And that creates a huge problem because.
That eliminates the two critical pillars that are required for stabilizing anden and accelerating the medical process and making sure it stays up to date. And if you treat doctors and caregivers like factory workers, they don't have an incentive to teach and they don't have an incentive to do research to learn new stuff.
They're just like, how do I see as many people as possible in as short, quick, quick a time as possible? Right? That's not how we deliver the best care. It never has been. We've always known that. So it's not a, shouldn't be a surprise. But for me, growing up in this traditional Western medical model and, and really having a lot of roots in this ancient practices of the way we deliver medicine and medical care, research and teaching have always been incredibly important to me.
And I think a lot of it was because I had really incredible mentors growing up, and I had the the blessing and of. Having people who knew more than me who were compassionate and and willing to teach me and to kind of like take me [00:07:00] outta their wing and show me the ropes, and not having had that, there's absolutely no way that I would've been where I am.
So I feel like it's a re and they also really respected research and clinical practice, even though they weren't necessarily experts in both. And so I got this, this incredible mentorship that really. Got me to where I am and helped me to accomplish these really interesting op, you know, things in life and take advantage of cool opportunities that I would've never seen before.
And so I feel like it's my responsibility to pass that on to the community and my colleagues. And so the psychedelic report is really this,, conglomeration of all of this. Sentiment around how do we teach medicine better? How do we teach neuroscience better? And how do we as the, the leaders in the field who are on the forefront doing the research, seeing the patients, how do we pass that information down as effectively as possible to the community, not just to the educated community, but also to everybody else, and make it understandable by everybody else.
And then how do we create a safe space? Talk about uncomfortable shit. Right, like psychedelics, altered states, shame, guilt, [00:08:00] what lies beneath the surface of our consciousness under the hood. You know, how do we create the safe space, talk about this stuff, and to really go out there without fear of stepping in somebody in in, in the dogma, right?
Without fear of like, or stepping in the, the, the shit that of the dogma. Right. I thought you were going for dog shit. I was surprised with the dogma twist, but yeah. Well, it's really like that. It's the dog. It's the shit that gets left behind from misplaced dogma. Right. And it's really like how do we not let that stuff gunk up the machine of discovery?
Because it's really about just discovering and teaching each other to discover as much as possible. That's like one of the most exciting parts about life. So the psychedelic report we really try to put out is like, this is a not a podcast. And this typical sense of a podcast, it's a show that actually has a live component.
You can call in, you can talk to the experts. We record live almost every Thursday at uh, 2:00 PM Pacific. And then you can come and check out those longer form interviews where we [00:09:00] actually give you the highlights of psychedelic news, consciousness news, mental health. This is what's going on in the forefront.
So you can actually understand how this means something to you, what you can do about it, um, how you can make this bigger part of your life even on a daily basis. And then how to talk about it with other people, because that's also really important so that we're sharing. A narrative that's consistent with the way things actually are, not the way we were just told.
Things are , so psychedelics. , I think anyone who's listening is going, they're either people are piqued their interest or people are now scared. Right? That's like one of those two reactions. have not tried microdosing yet. We won't talk about what happened in college. We'll, we'll just say that I'm not a rookie.
, But can you just explain, you know, just kind of the basics, like why are we talking about psychedelics? Why are we talking about microdosing? What is it good for? Like, and what could people expect? Like the difference between a fun weekend and microdosing, right? There's a huge difference. [00:10:00] Yeah, there's definitely a huge difference and there's definitely a huge difference also between a fun weekend where you're exploring your subconscious and, uh, a, a really horrifying bad trip weekend, right?
Which could easily turn one way or the other. And so a lot of people have a lot of mystery around those experiences, which creates, , apprehension or a little bit of fear, a little bit reservation. That's, and that's okay. , and I think it's probably a good thing. But to demystify it a little bit, what psychedelic means is, is it means, it's a word that was described many years ago, uh, several decades ago.
That means to reveal the mind. Right. So psyche means mind. Dus means to show or to reveal. So this is an, uh, you know, like from Latin Greek roots, that means to reveal the mind. So what that really means is, is that it's talking about a state of being that's not unique to a drug-induced state. It's a state that we actually most often [00:11:00] encounter in our dreams, where parts of our minds, parts of ourselves, that are normally not.
Aware, we're not aware of or not available to us, all of a sudden come into our awareness and we're starting to be able to perceive those things and the amount of those, um, of what comes up that becomes available to us. The amount of stuff from beneath the surface isn't always predictable, and that's the same with our dreams.
Sometimes we have super deep, intense dreams and sometimes we have dreams that are. Really light. We barely remember them and they don't really seem to have any relevance at all. But either way, those are kind of like a natural altered state that all of us enter a natural psychedelic state that all of us enter on a regular basis.
And the reason why this is important to understand is because this is not, again, a drug required thing. You don't require psychedelic medicines to enter these states. So that's number one. , number two is the medicine. Is a molecular amplifier of something that's going on inside of [00:12:00] us that allows us to.
Evaluate and become aware of what's beneath the surface of our awareness. So that's the second most important thing, is that psychedelic medicines are molecules. You ingest them into your body. Then they're molecularly amplifying certain pathways in our bodies around emotion and feeling. And Stan Graf, one of the founding psychiatrists who invented the holotropic breath work, he was one of the first psychiatrists to try L S D in the forties and fifties.
, Very famous and well regarded psychiatrist in this field said that, uh, and described psychedelic medicines as non-specific amplifiers, and you can add on of awareness at the end there because ultimately, if you think about our awareness on a daily basis or right now, Right. Our awareness is the tip of the iceberg of life.
It's like just what we see that's sticking out of the surface of the water, which is right now, this conversation, if you're looking at the video, you're seeing us talking to each other, maybe some hand movements, maybe our eyes sta darting back and forth as we thought [00:13:00] track each other on the screen, right?
And that's what we're aware of in the context of this immediate moment, which is just the tip of the iceberg sticking outta the water and all of a sudden, You introduce a psychedelic state or a psychedelic drug and all of a sudden that iceberg starts to become re we realize, not that it's changing in shape, it's just becoming, we're, we're watching it.
Appear much bigger and we're saying, oh, as this medicine takes effect, or as this meditation state or this dream state becomes more realizable, I'm actually able to see beneath the surface of the water, not just that little tip that's sticking out that, you know, confuse the Titanic captain, but I can actually see what's all the way beneath the a hundred million more times, uh, iceberg that's beneath the surface.
And I can choose if I plan thoughtfully, going back to what we bring into the experience, I can choose. What it is that I want to evaluate as part of that iceberg? What do I want to focus on? Because there's, again, a hundred million more st times iceberg beneath the surface. That's a lot for me to take in at any [00:14:00] moment.
How do I zoom in on the parts that I care about the most, that I, that mean the most to me? And let's bring those back into my above the surface, right? And then gradually what is above the surface becomes a little bit bigger and a little bit sharper, and a little bit more in clear view, and that helps us to be more informed, aware.
Of what's going on in our lives. And if we in tandem, if we bring in gratitude for that, if we bring in, you know, feelings of safety, , feelings of, you know, wholeness, feelings of seeking wholeness, seeking safety, seeking gratitude, those kinds of things in a safe environment, we amplify all of that with the medicine.
And the medicine creates this powerfully healing experience that is literally a molecular accelerator to things like gratitude and self-love and forgiveness and compassion. And on the other hand, if we bring in fear and threat and perceptions of lack of safety or lack of safety within ourselves or self-hatred and things like that, and we're in a disorganized, unsafe environment [00:15:00] coming in, we don't trust the people we're around.
What have you, and things that simple, that can amplify the fear and it can amplify the disorganization and the discomfort. And so this is really critical because the safety of the environment ultimately is the single most important part that makes sure that people have these very, very meaningful, powerful outcomes that are long lasting, and that safety really seems to facilitate the transformation that people have in the healing experience.
So having that safety, whether it's internally generated, cuz we're, we train ourselves to do it, or whether it comes from a guide or people around us, , will dramatically impact the way that we respond to these medicines, to the ultimate end of whether or not we have what we call a good trip or a bad trip.
A bad trip is when we resist what. Is coming up, what is coming into our awareness from beneath the surface of the, of the water When that comes up and we're like, oh no, I'm not ready for that. That's because, for whatever reason, but it's usually because we don't feel safe enough [00:16:00] to face it in that moment.
That's when it becomes down, it goes down the bad trip path because we're putting up a wall or a blocker to something that's asking to be acknowledged and worked through. And the medicine is bringing that forth through expanding our awareness. And then we're like, oh wait, I plan to this, but actually I'm not ready.
And that thing still knock in there being like, Hey, well I'm ready. You better be ready for me. And if you're not, then you're gonna have a rough ride. Okay. I, I want to zero in on both sides of that because they speak to the very light experiences that I had with two different, , tests that I did. , but I also wanna dumb this down really quick for, for dummies like me.
So I, I've been talking about this. I think what you just said very, very clearly, uh, about the awareness part of this. And I, I've had this debate with several people about whether or not a psychedelic experience is. Really witnessing more of reality or, or, or a reality that's not available to [00:17:00] us.
Or if we're just tripping balls, right? Like We're messing up our brains. So we th we see things silly, right? We see things in a different way. Is it really that we're seeing more? Are we seeing something that already exists and we don't have the ability to process it without getting into these states, through dreams or breath work or whatever?
Is there more that we're being exposed to, or is it just our brain is kind of put in a weird mode? You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, Or do we know it's an age old question, right? Is, is it hallucination implying that what we're experiencing is not real or illusionary? Or is it more of what's real?
And the question is it's both, or the answer is it's both. Right? It's everything and more. Because if you go in, but, and what you go into it with the intention that, with the goal basically of, I want to get X out of this experience, whatever it is, whether there's drugs involved or not, whether you're microdosing or [00:18:00] microdosing, whether you're taking microdosing.
Basically everything we're talking about applies to both microdosing and macro dosing, but microdosing means sub-threshold dosing. We barely notice or don't notice any effect in the moment, whereas macro dosing is with the goal of achieving a peak state, a peak ecstatic state. So, , Microdosing, you do like occasionally or once every three according to like the fattom protocol, for instance, be like once every three days for three months.
Macro dosing. You do once every two to four weeks at most, at most, under careful guidance. Um, and you don't tend to need as much guidance for microdosing, um, other than regular therapy. But ultimately, yes. What you bring, what is, this is the age old question, right? Is what is it that people are witnessing when they enter into these profoundly spiritual and sacred altered states of consciousness, whether it be with medicine or yoga or breath work or flow states through exercise or psychedelics or whatever, or, or like drumming circles, right?
Whatever it is, or gongs, [00:19:00] something is nudging people into these very powerful states, and it seems to be. Something likely consistent with, again, this is a little bit of speculation combined what we know from the neuroscience, but it seems to be something consistent with a dopamine rec, dopamine, serotonin, PA cascade that's happening in the brain that's activated by these molecules, particularly around the serotonin five H T two A receptor, but not unique to that, but that's a very important one that results in a shift in.
The filter in our brains in the middle between what's coming in and what gets stored. There's a little filter and, uh, it has a bunch of names, but we'll just call it the colostrum for, for this purpose, which is a thin, imagine, like a thin film that coats the part of the brain between what comes in and then what we decide to store as meaningful, long-term memory.
And it's a, and that filter gets changed. Right. So if that filter [00:20:00] is filtering in, allowing in, normally when we're sober, everything that's important for survival in our day-to-day functioning, but nothing else, right? So it filters out the feeling of the clothes on our body. It filters out when people do things that annoy us or make us feel sad.
It might even filter out our own feelings of sadness and being annoyed or angry because those are disruptive to us on a daily basis, right? It might filter out. Other people's emotions, right? It might filter out a lot because none of that stuff is useful to us on a daily basis. All of a sudden you take a psychedelic medicine, it shifts the nature of that filter just slightly, and now you're able to perceive a.
Different things based on the nature of what that medicine did. So in the case of psilocybin, maybe you take a little psilocybin and your awareness of natural phenomena increases, right? Your awareness of the way the sun reflects off the leaves as it's passing through the trees changes, right? The feeling of the heat on your, on your skin from the, from the sun, or the lack [00:21:00] thereof.
As the wind is blowing by and evaporating that heat from you, you start to notice different things that are very naturally oriented. Whereas when people use. Medicine like L S D or PIL or OR M D M A, it often winds up introducing a much more empathy, heightening sensation, right? It's called, that's why they're often called.
, Inogenic substances because they increase the sense of empathy and, and awareness of self and connection to self and others, right? And so each medicine has its own slightly different character that molecularly is amplifying different awarenesses, different parts of the body. But I think using the word hallucination or illusion is actually doing us a great disservice because what we're seeing and experiencing when we shift the filter, Is real.
The world around us is not actually changing when we shift the filter, right? When we shift the filter, we're just changing the way we perceive the world around us, and so therefore, you would guess that what it is you're perceiving is still actually there. [00:22:00] It's just coming in through a different lens.
Then how do you tune that lens? Right to actually bring in like tuning a TV antenna or radio, like how do you just twi tweak that a little bit to make sure that it's getting in stuff that isn't, impacted by a whole bunch of interference that the signal you're getting is pure right and clean and crystal clear.
And once you have a clear, clean, crystal clear signal, then making sense of what is. Something my mind is just kind of like messing with versus what is it that I'm actually experiencing and how does this make sense as reality becomes a lot easier. But this takes trading, right? This is, this is complicated stuff.
Yeah. We don't learn this as kids. Yeah. Oh, for sure, for sure. Uh, man, I, I, I wanna wedge like three questions into our remaining few minutes. I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and do this, uh, I have a few more minutes too, if that's okay. Oh, perfect. Okay, great. So, so quickly, I, I just want to share my, uh, two experiments that I did, and I think they speak to what you were talking about before where I had two different, uh, two [00:23:00] different psilocybin, um, edibles.
I did this by myself. Nobody else was home. It was just me, a and. The first one I took, I, I was less afraid of. I, I just, you know, I ate it and, and turned on the TV and, and just kind of hung out and just waited to see what would happen. Like, are the walls gonna start doing weird still? Like, what's gonna happen?
And ultimately after about an hour, I realized like I'm sitting here smiling like an idiot for no reason. Like I feel, I feel happy, but otherwise, like. Nothing, nothing weird. No, no. You know, an elephant's not dancing across the living room or anything, like, I'm just, I've like, I just feel light and kind of good and clear and happy, and I was like, oh, I get it right.
Like, if I've got some serious stuff and I ramp up the dose, and with the, with the right, uh, guidance from a professional, this could be powerful. The other one I was afraid of, I tried it the next night. And I started getting angry and just like, like unsettled and just kind of irritated and I couldn't figure out what was going on.
I mentioned that to Zach before we were recording and he said, that's the one you should do more of cuz there's some stuff you gotta work on in there. [00:24:00] So what's your take on my, on my two experiences? I mean, if he's not entirely wrong, right? I knew you were gonna say that, but you wanna but you. But again, you have to be in a space that you've cultivated in advance that is prepared to nurture that experience for you, because it will be uncomfortable.
And I think the. You know, the Buddhist have a really nice way of describing this in that the discomfort or the vulnerability, what makes us feel vulner vulnerable or most challenged, is our greatest teacher. That's what we should treat as our greatest teacher because that is the experience we're gonna learn the most from by learning how to navigate our discomfort.
Does that make sense? Totally. Totally. That, that's a great answer. But we have to, but we have to be safe at the, at the core. Mm-hmm. In our environment to be able to. Allow our minds and bodies to sit with that discomfort because if we're not safe, if we are stressed out and keyed up in [00:25:00] any way, like even not getting enough sleep last night, getting into an argument with our partner or friends or family, uh, having difficulty at work.
You know, just too many responsibilities, too much news. Any of those things are all together. We'll get our bodies into a state where we're actually physiologically opposed to change, which I think we talked about a lot in our last interview. Um, and if the body's opposed to change, doesn't matter how much good newness is coming up, it doesn't matter how much stuff it's coming up that you're like, oh yeah, I need to work on that.
Your body will resist working on it because it's uncomfortable. So the safety of the environment, whether it you can do it on your own or whether you have other folks come in to help you or you go someplace to feel safe enough to be able to access these deep states, that is absolutely critical to the experience.
And so then on those lines, uh, obviously the, the healing properties of this, I mean that's, that's what, that's what you're exploring here with, with your professional life. So my little example of, boy, I feel kind of happier, you know, extrapolate that out to somebody with P T S D, with serious [00:26:00] depression, serious anxiety issues like serious, serious mental health issues.
We're seeing tremendous, uh, benefits in treating those properly with, with these medicines. So can you tell me just sort of briefly about where we're at with that? For sure. Yeah. I mean, in short, this is one of the most exciting times that we've had in the history of psychiatry because we are seeing that there's a complete shift in the paradigm of healing from mental illness to what, where we're at still today, which is we're going to, you're gonna come into the office and we're gonna treat your symptoms and we're gonna give you medication and give you tools and help manage the symptoms.
And then the other side of it that we're going to, because we, the symptom management only works in less than 50% of people long term. Meaning that more than 50% of people with P T S D and depression anxiety are still sick after two or more gold standard treatments. Of by the book treatment. Right. So that's not a great statistic.
So, so [00:27:00] psychedelic medicines offer a completely different paradigm where you don't have to take medicine every day. You do have to do practices every day, like what we're talking about, like gratitude practices and self-forgiveness, self-compassion, self-love practices, which are. You know, less side effects than medication.
Using tools like Apollo can help integrate and facilitate learning in psychedelic states, other neuroplasticity tools. But the point is you're only taking medicine for. Three to 12 times in the entire course of your illness. So if you think about with ketamine assisted therapy, what we do in the clinic, this is now the only legal, psychedelic medicine.
It's used predominantly for depression treatment, resistant depression, and P T S D. This is most of the people we see coming into our clinic, uh, come for ketamine therapy and they don't want to take medication anymore. Or they've had a lot of side effects from medication they can't take. Medication. And so we do ketamine therapy with them and with intensive preparation therapy during the medicine session, and then integration within [00:28:00] just six to 12 sessions we see, and you know, maybe like 40 hours of psychotherapy, not a lifetime, but 40 hours.
Discreet 40 hours. You know, we're seeing similar to the MAPS protocol, like a 80 to 95%, 88 to 95% response rate in people who are treatment resistant, right? These are people who have failed all other treatments. So that's really exciting and. In the MAPS trial, which is the leading trials of, uh, psychedelics for mental illness, um, they've looked at people who are the sickest of the sick.
They are looking at people with treatment resistant P T S D, on average of 17.6 years, no treatment responses. And with just three doses of M D M A, again, these people have tried everything under the sun. Nothing has worked. They get three doses of M D M A with a combined 42 hours of psychotherapy over 12 weeks.
And in that timeframe, 55% of them in the phase two trial, which now they've completed [00:29:00] phase three, but which had better results even. But 55% in the phase two were no longer meeting diagnostic criteria for P T S D. Something like an 88% response rate, meaning 88% of people are, are getting some benefit, and this is compared to placebo.
55% are actually no longer being diagnostic. Right? Cherry after just 12 weeks of treatment. Then what's even more incredible as you look at one year out, right, because you wanna see does the treatment effect last? Is it durable one year out? No additional treatment with M D M A, no additional treatment with psychotherapy or anything that's administered by maps and one year out.
That number of 55% in the phase two trial goes up to 67%, no longer meeting diagnostic criteria. So something is happening in these people in that three doses and 42 hours of psychotherapy timeframe with M D M A, which is similar to what we're seeing in ketamine, which is that people are remembering how to heal themselves again.
And this is what goes back to the, again, the ancient hippocratic principles of [00:30:00] Western medicine and the ancient eastern tribal principles of those of, of Eastern culture, Chinese medicine, Ayurvedic medicine, and tribal culture is that the center of the healing process always resides within the individual seeking to be healed, not in the healer, not in the medicine.
And it's about restoring power to that part of us so that we can heal ourselves. Better. And if we can do that, then it decreases costs, it improves comfort, improves response rates. It improves everything. If we can get people reactivated in that way. And M D M A and psychedelic medicines are so paradigm shifting for mental health because they show us that that's possible again, and they show us that the medicine used properly can amplify.
That self-healing or, or as maps calls it, the inner healing intelligence. This part of ourselves just knows how to heal ourselves. The medicines and the therapy amplify that, and they do it on a consistent, long-term basis that has incredible long-term results to the point where we, we see these results coming out and it changes the way that we even [00:31:00] talk about the illness to the point where we might be able to use in the next three to five years as early as that we might actually be able to use the cure word when describing.
People's mental illness pro uh, prognosis, which is incredible. That is incredible. Wow. I, I know, I know we need to wrap up and, and I've just got one more question for you where please, where people can find you, but, um, I honestly could, could ask you a thousand more questions and go down this road. I wanted Jeremy to have the questions because he's had the experience and, um, I guess my last question before I ask, you know, where people can find you is, did you say earlier I was kind of right.
I did. Yeah. All right. Fantastic. Well, there was a big caveat there though. Well, no, what You're right. What you're right about is really important. You know, I think the caveat is the safety, because we often overlook it. Like we just forget, like we take safety so much for granted, but we realize that most of us aren't taught how to do it or how to do it, right?
Yeah. And, and, but the [00:32:00] point that you're really right about that, we also are not taught, is that we have to build tolerance to discomfort. Right? Yeah. Like life is not about being comfortable all the time, despite what we may have been taught growing up. That is a fantastic goal to be comfortable all the time, to always strive for comfort, to always strive for balance.
But balance really means that sometimes we're uncomfortable and sometimes we're comfortable. I. I'm so glad you said that. That was the question I was afraid I wasn't gonna have time to ask you about. It's because I struggle with it. Like self-help is such a a, there's such a gimmicky part of it where we're constantly like, you can be happy if you just three simple steps to a life where you're just carefree and everything's wonderful.
That's not, it's not possible and it's not a good life experience. Right. I mean, that's the whole point is to grow through these pains. Right. Exactly. And it's not, and and again, to your to the point, right? These are all, this is really great cuz it's not, we have to set reasonable expectations or no expectations.
Because expectations, if you also look at the Buddhist teachings, [00:33:00] expectations are also the root of suffering. Yep. Because they attach us to an outcome that may or may not be. And if we instead let go of the idea of expectations. And just say, Hey, I'm just gonna do my best with what I know to be the best person I can to myself and others.
Then the outcomes, we, we manifest the outcomes by focusing more of our energy on what we're doing right now to be that best person we can be than we are thinking about how. What, you know, what we want to get out of all these things we're doing Right. Which then creates this like almost teeing us up for disappointment because we almost never hit our expectations.
Right on. It's extremely hard to hit your expectations. Right on. You're always gonna slip on something. Um, and so, you know, being able to recognize that, you know, again, thinking about what we're talking about here, if we're talking about like rethinking mental illness, A lot of what we're talking about is also rethinking health and in general, and health is about balance.
It's not about always feeling happy [00:34:00] all the time. That's not a reality for any human being because we are aware of everything. Therefore, we can be, we are gonna be aware of sad stuff and happy stuff at the same time, we have to respect that balance. It's really about restoring health. It's about maintaining and sustaining that balance in.
Constructive ways, and if we embrace the fact that we're going to feel uncomfortable, then the, and that's just part of life. Then rather than avoid discomfort, we actually dive into it head first and say, okay, let me figure out how to feel this in a way that makes sense to me and figure out what I can learn from it as much as possible.
And that's when I become stronger and grow. Right? Mm-hmm. That's when I start to like really unlock talking about like unlocking our potential. Like that's when we really start to unlock our potential because that's where all the, all the good stuff lies beneath the discomfort, like you were saying, uh, Zach earlier, right?
Like that Buddhist, that that famous Buddhist teaching is like, think about the most challenging person [00:35:00] that you have to interact with in any time of your life, and that person is your greatest teacher. Ooh. I love that. Okay, so if anyone listening is anything like me, they've got a million more questions.
They wanna talk to you forever, but, and you've been really, really gracious with your time, so can you tell me where people can find you, where they can find the podcast, if they wanna learn, learn more about you and, and what you're doing. Yeah, absolutely. Um, you could check me out at Clubhouse at Dr. Dave.
Uh, Dr. Dave Raven. The podcast email@example.com. Um, you can find the show on any iTunes or Apple streaming platform. Oh, sorry, iTunes or Spotify streaming platform. Um, it's called the psychedelic Report, your Single Source of Truth for the Psychedelic News. Um, and if you want to hit me up, I always like to hear from you, uh, on Clubhouse.
We record the show live almost every Thursday, so you actually can come on and hang out with us. You can chat [00:36:00] with us, interact with the experts, who'd really like to bring back that live radio element. That's really always been fun for me growing up. Um, and having a chance to talk to the experts when they're around.
And so we welcome you to come join us and then, uh, always hit me up on socials, Instagram and Twitter at Dr. David Rabin. And you can find my website, me on my firstname.lastname@example.org or Dr. Dave io. And, uh, props to the Apollo wearable. I, like I told you, I, I've got it on a schedule. It just goes all the time.
And then I'm like, ah, it died. I gotta charge it. So, great work with that as well. I'm just, I'm such a fan. It's such a privilege to have you on this show and to, to, to be able to put on these master classes with you. So thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it. And, uh, hope to do it again soon.
Oh, well thank you. I hope to do this again as well. I really enjoy chatting with you guys and there's so much more to talk about. You know, even just wrapping up on Apollo, for those who are not familiar, there has, there has never been a wearable that has been an an assistant or tool for altered states or psychedelic state.
Apollo [00:37:00] is actually the first wearable technology that not only helps us access psychedelic or altered states more easily, more reliably. Um, just by tuning the body with sound, but it also helps us to navigate those experiences better. And it's the first wearable that's ever received an issued patent to reduce unwanted or unpleasant effects within the psychedelic state by restoring agency through a skin to breath to heart.
Uh, neuro neurological process, which is really interesting. So this is the first of many technologies that'll be coming out in this area. But, so stay tuned because if you're somebody who's interested in exploring altered states and you want tools to help you navigate those more safely, more fluidly, um, and make them more accessible to you, Apollo is something that could definitely be worth exploring.
And we'll definitely link to the previous episode where we talked more about that. Thank you again so much. Uh, just a privilege to have you here. We really appreciate your time. Things. Likewise. My pleasure. Thank you again.
Jeremy: Oh, thanks to Dr.
Dave for being back on the show. Dr. Dave Rabin from the Apollo Neuro Band that we love so much, uh, as well [00:38:00] as the new podcast that is fascinating and goes so much deeper on this topic than Zach and I will probably ever be able to do. It's called the Psychedelic Report. Check it out. Links to all of that are in the show notes for this email@example.com.
Again, key takeaways there, Zach. We started off the show talking about this, but one of them is absolutely get some help. If you're gonna do this, don't do this on your own.
Zach: Absolutely. I am going to pick on Jeremy. Don't be like Jeremy. somehow.
Jeremy: I do everything by myself. Why wouldn't I do this by myself?
Zach: Yes, we all know that. But in this case, do as Jeremy says, not as he does, cuz you don't wanna spend a whole weekend playing Tetris, not heal yourself.
Jeremy: One of the things that I thought was so fascinating that he said about this was the, you know, the 50% of patients, particularly P T S D patients who they treat symptoms over and over and over again, and, and no real true healing ever seems to happen. But when he started talking about, you know, in, in three to 12 treatments properly done, That those problems could be erased.
I just think that [00:39:00] the, the potential for this as we're just, , getting serious about allowing the, , , scientific exploration of it, the, the studying of it. I just feel like the sky is the limit on how many problems this may be able to solve. If we can get drug companies to get out of the way and allow it to blossom
Zach: And that's another takeaway is, just simply the fact that the, the stigma that these types of things have gotten over the years. Right. They've been painted a really, really bad picture, and that's just absolutely not the case. It is medicine. I. In a lot of, in a lot of scenarios, it's mein, it's not a drug, , if you're using it in the right way, you're not out to get high.
You're not out to, , trip out and, and do all those things. Even though, you know, college may, may or may not have been, , my enjoyable time. This is literally medicine to heal you to get better. And , to your point on the drug companies, right, I mean, , this is ultimately why they don't want it to be around, right?
Because this is a treatment that can actually solve the root of the problem, whereas all of these other drugs are just treating the symptoms and it's [00:40:00] a, you know, dollar signs, right?
Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. And, and it is something that needs to be taken seriously, perhaps even more seriously than we started the show. You know, we, we throw around the terms like magic pill. It literally is medicine. And if we even people like us, stop using other language to describe it and, and literally call it what it is, medicine for these awful conditions, then, uh, I, I think that we'll just be on a faster path to healing for a lot of people.
Zach: Yeah. I am super excited , with the, the research and the potential that's coming out of all of this because, I mean, there's so many people who are struggling in life that, , years and years and years of talk therapy. Like there's, there's just some people who are, have such trauma. There's no amount of talk therapy, there's no amount of, pills that they're gonna be able to take that's going to heal them properly.
And this has the potential to give all of those people a normal life again. And then it has the potential to give all of us with the little tea trauma, ? Just a little bit better of a life. Permanently. So I, I'm super excited about the [00:41:00] research capability that's coming out on this and, , hopefully someday seeing it legal here in the us.
I know it's a different store in Canada, but
Jeremy: it's uh, that's a, that's a little, a little more gray up here, but, uh, from what I've been told, that can be delivered to your house, which is amazing. So I've heard. All right. Well that's gonna do it for this episode of the Fit Mess.
Thank you so much for listening. Thank you to Dr. Dave from Apollo Neuro and from the psychedelic report. Links to all of his stuff is in the show notes for this firstname.lastname@example.org. That's where we'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks for listening.
Zach: See everyone. [00:42:00]
Cofounder and CIO, Apollo Neuroscience
Dr. David Rabin, MD, PhD, is a neuroscientist, board-certified psychiatrist, health tech entrepreneur & inventor who has been studying the impact of chronic stress in humans for more than a decade. He is the co-founder & chief innovation officer at Apollo Neuroscience, which has developed the first scientifically-validated wearable technology that actively improves energy, focus & relaxation, using a novel touch therapy that signals safety to the brain.
Dr. Dave has always been fascinated by consciousness and our inherent ability to heal ourselves from injury and illness. As such, he has specifically focused his research on the clinical translation of non-invasive therapies for patients with treatment-resistant illnesses like PTSD and substance use disorders.
Dr. Rabin is the co-founder and executive director of the Board of Medicine, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization of physicians and scientists establishing the first peer-reviewed, evidence-based clinical guidelines for the production and safe use of currently unregulated alternative medicines, including plant medicines. The Board of Medicine trains and certifies healthcare providers, and provides quality control standards for complementary and alternative medicines to support high-quality clinical research, best practices, and risk-reduction.
In addition to his clinical psychiatry practice, Dr. Dave is currently conducting research on the epigenetic regulation of trauma responses and recovery to elucidate the mechanism of psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy and the neurobiology of belief.
Dr. Rabin received his MD in medicine and PhD in neuroscience from Albany Medical College and specialized in psychiatry with a distinction in research at Western Psychiatric Institute & Clinic at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.
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