April 5, 2023

Habit Hacks: How Mitch Hankins from The Debug Life is Using "Hacking" to Optimize his Health and Life

Habit Hacks: How Mitch Hankins from The Debug Life is Using

In this episode of The Fit Mess, we sit down with Mitch Hankins, the founder of The Debug Life and a self-proclaimed "health hacker". Mitch defines "hacking" as the process of taking something apart to understand how it works and then using that...

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In this episode of The Fit Mess, we sit down with Mitch Hankins, the founder of The Debug Life and a self-proclaimed "health hacker". Mitch defines "hacking" as the process of taking something apart to understand how it works and then using that knowledge to improve it. He applies this approach to his health and fitness routines, constantly experimenting and tweaking to find what works best for him. In our conversation, Mitch shares his insights on how he's using "hacking" to optimize his health and life and offers tips on how listeners can do the same.

Key takeaways:

  • Hacking means taking something apart to understand how it works and using that knowledge to improve it.
  • Mitch applies the hacking mindset to his health and fitness routines.
  • He constantly experiments and tweaks to find what works best for him.
  • Mitch shares insights on how he's using "hacking" to optimize his health and life.



Guest Website



[00:00:00] Do you ever feel like your mind is working against you, sabotaging your efforts to be healthy and happy? Our guest on today's episode of the fitness is Mitch Hankins.

As the founder of the debug life podcast. Which is a bit of a health hacker who applies the same principles of programming, a computer to his own life. And this episode, Mitch shares his insights on how you can use the mindset of a hacker.

To optimize your health. And your life.

Zach: So life has been a little busy lately for you and I, right? we've been doing a lot of best ofs lately. We've been kind of phoning it in just a little bit. No original episodes.

Jeremy: How dare you? How dare you.

Zach: I know I have gotten a few, , messages from several [00:01:00] different people who were asking about my current status in life based on things that were in the episode that we aired over the last few weeks.

Cuz like, I didn't know you or, Hey, you mentioned this, but I didn't know that about you because it was a year ago or two years

Jeremy: or more.

Zach: that we recorded it. We are back. It's been, it's been a little while. It's been a little crazy. It's been a little hectic. Um, for me. Jeremy's just been on vacation

Jeremy: Yeah, the hardest time of my life. Just theme park after theme park. Beautiful. Sunny Drive after beautiful, sunny drive. I mean, I'm overwhelmed. I've got just too many good things going for me in the last couple weeks. I just simply didn't have time for anything else.

Zach: clearly. I mean, and you must be recovering now too. I mean, like, that's, that's a lot to take on and that, that must have impacted your physical, mental, and wellbeing.

Jeremy: Uh, definitely my physical because every meal I ate for the last two weeks was at a restaurant, so I feel like a gigantic cow right now. I feel horrible.

Zach: , you don't look like it much.[00:02:00] Well, I don't know about you I've been dealing with things. , I haven't felt like my best self, , for the better part of two months now. I've been having a lot of personal issues, a lot of just issues all around. On top of the fact that I've literally had a sinus infection for two months.

Jeremy: Oh my God.

Zach: And every time I go to the doctor, they're like, yeah, we're not gonna give you antibiotics for that. It's been two months. When do you give me antibiotics? Like how, I mean, how long must I suffer to get this? So I'll be very honest, the last two months have been, Utilizing every single tool and technique that, you know, we've talked about on the show, and then some, , that I've got in my back pocket just to kind of keep afloat, man, you know, it's this, we talk about, you know, the fit mess, right?

It is messy. We all fall down sometimes and it's been, it's been a little tough, but I'm back on my feet. I think I'm doing okay for the most.

Jeremy: So I have some questions about that because, [00:03:00] and this is, uh, very much the focus of the episode this week, is we're gonna talk to Mitch Hankins from the Debug Life. We have largely been spending the last, you know, decade debugging our life, figuring out what wasn't working, what was working, and, and highlighting those strengths and working on our weaknesses.

So I know you've been super overwhelmed, like you said, personally, professionally. What are some of the tools that you pull out when, when the overwhelm kicks in and, and takes over and, and life just feels like too much?

Zach: Well, my go-to tool is procrastination.

Jeremy: Yeah, I'm really good at that one.

Zach: Just put it all off, walk away.

Jeremy: It'll fix itself.

Zach: Ah, it's gotta, totally has to. , one of the things that was taking me out was, , in the middle of all of this, I had to go do a week in, another country for work, which was quite stressful. My shortest day there was 16 hours long.

It was, it was a lot of work and I

Jeremy: Having a real job must suck.

Zach: Does sometimes. Um, I didn't go to the gym. I didn't get the physical exercise that I needed, and then on top of it, I, the week [00:04:00] before I left for that trip, I had the sinus infection was, was kind of killing me. And that took me out for like a week. And every time I tried to work out, I actually got sicker.

So I went this big long period without working out because I was sick. And then I was traveling, and then I came back from traveling and I had jet lag for three days. And now, my kitchen, I had all the tile replaced in my house, so they pulled all the tile out, put new tile in, but I'm allergic to dust.

So the sinus infection kicked back up and then I couldn't go to the gym. And, and, and so anyway, of the tools that I use, I was leaving the house, going outside, getting air, going for a walk and just realizing that yeah, I can't go work out but I can go for a walk around the block. , lot of meditation, lots of deep breathing, , little bit of yoga cuz I could handle that. One of the things that really just got me, like when I am overwhelmed, [00:05:00] like I just, I spent an hour in front of my whiteboard. I completely cleared it off, and I just dumped my brain out on it. Like I, I cannot tell you how therapeutic that is. If you just dump your brain out onto something stationary, it's outta your head.

It makes a huge difference. If you can just write it all down, put it somewhere. So I did a little bit of that and now I. I think I'm 90% healthy. I've been to the gym a few times. I beat the shit outta myself this morning. Loved it, which was great. , so many things. And just the compassion. So many times I was calling myself a piece of shit.

So many times I was like, you suck because you're not working out. You're not doing the thing you, you're not doing All the things, you know, make you happy. And I was like, you know what? I got a lot going on. I can't always do that. Let me take care of what I can take care of today. Three things. That's it.

Just three things today, even though there's a hundred on the list, take care [00:06:00] of that. Get it done. And the self-compassion piece, man, that makes such a huge difference when you're really feeling low, when you're really depressed, when you're really anxious, when you really just wanna go jump off of a bridge. Just be compassionate with yourself, serious.

Jeremy: I, yeah, uh, I, you're, you're speaking my language. I mean, I, I know I was on vacation, but I, I packed a suitcase including gym clothes because we were gonna be staying in a lot of hotels and hotels have gyms, and I was going to go to them. And I pulled those workout clothes out of the suitcase last night when I got home and put them back in the drawer because I never went to the gym once during that entire two weeks.

Didn't happen. And I wanted to tell myself, I wanted to tell myself, you lazy piece of crap. Why can't you just, you said you were gonna go. You get up and go every morning. What's the difference? Your family's still in bed. Go to the. But then I was like, oh wait, but you also just walked like 15 miles at Disneyland yesterday and 17 miles, you know, today at [00:07:00] Disneyland.

And then, you know, I like, I walked like a maniac, like I walked everywhere. So I got loads and loads of miles in just doing that. And so I was like, you did something. Like you moved, you don't feel super awful. No. You're not making progress on all the things you were trying to do in the.

But you're still moving, you're still doing what you tell people to do all the time. You're getting out and moving your body. That is just such a key piece of the foundation. Even if it's not lifting heavy weights, just doing something is so, is so critical. So that made me feel good. , you know, and honestly, like I, I've been thinking a lot.

All the tools that we talk about on this show. Cause there's, we talk about this stuff, right? The meditation, the yoga, the deep breathing, like all that stuff. But there's gadgets literally that we've talked about on this show before. Two that never leave my body. One is my aura ring, and I used that to gauge how am I recovering from eating like garbage at Disneyland?

How am I recovering from walking more in a day than I normally do? And the other one is my Apollo Neuro. [00:08:00] The thing never comes off of my wrist, and I have it scheduled to go off throughout the day at key points. So like, if I know I have to be around my family, it's on like social mode. If it's getting close to bedtime, it's wind down mode.

If it's bedtime, it's fall asleep mode. The extra things like that, right? Like the little gadgets, the little things that you can bring into your life also make a big impact on my life.

And so I was super thankful to have those on this trip. but like you said, I mean, ultimately it comes back to the compassion because when you are not doing the things you say you're gonna do, when you're not doing the things that you know are important to. It doesn't do you any good to go, you suck.

How come you're the worst? Why don't you do the things you say you're gonna do? It's just so much easier on your mental and emotional health to just be like, you know what? I can't do it right now. Let's do it tomorrow. And that just, just giving yourself that grace makes it so much easier to get back up and do it the next day.

Because like we talk about all the time, it's not punishment, it's just the next.


Zach: [00:09:00] Well, with all that, I guess it's confirmed. You and I are not perfect.

Jeremy: What.

Zach: but we put in the work and I love the name of the podcast of our guest this week.

Who is Mitch Hankins he's the host of the Debug Life podcast, and he's gonna talk to us about how software development and personal development can go hand in hand. Can't wait.

Interview-Mitch - USB: you know, I'm a software engineer. and I grew up in the Netherlands and moved to the United States, was in the Air Force military, , moved around a bunch, didn't really, , have community anywhere, and so I was always really ambitious, so I kind of doubled down on that. , just really went after , promotions, those sort of things like professional development. . , and I just kinda hit rock bottom at some point and, , started slowly turning things around over the years.

And then at some point I still wasn't really happy with what I was doing in life and I thought, , how can I kind of fulfill my spiritual, , mission here on earth? And I thought, well, [00:10:00] that's taking the people through the same transformation that I made, like kind of finding a meaningful life.

You know, for me it's all about returning to authenticity, kind of shedding all the layers. For me, self-improvement isn't so much about learning new things as it is about unlearning all the lies that we've been told.

And, , that's really where, for me, debugging comes in, where it's kind of like, is this a part of me? Like is this what I want or is this just what I'm expect to value? What am expect to like, and . finding some authenticity and living with that authenticity is really, , yeah, what that's all about.

Jeremy: you mentioned sort of throwing yourself into the developing professionally, right? Like doing all the things we're supposed to do, following the path that's laid out for us when we start going to school and all of that. , we've been talking about this a lot on the show lately, especially for men.

I feel like this is an especially nasty trap because I think that often we go to work, we excel, we get kudos, promotions, raises, , and the beast is fed, right? We're, we're very satisfied because everyone tells us what a, what an awesome person we are, and then we [00:11:00] go home. , and that often is lacking because just naturally people take family for granted.

You don't tend to say thank you as much. There's not as many rewards. There's not a built in review system for your marriage or your parenthood. So I feel like men are set up for massive failure in this system because then it reinforces the idea that I need to work more, I need to work harder, I need to show up better at work.

And then we kind of phone it in at home because, well, whether I do great or do terrible, the end result's the same. , does that make sense? Am I close in, in your opinion on how that works?

Interview-Mitch - USB: Yeah, absolutely. I think you, you hit it 100% on the, on the head. Like it's exactly what I went through where, you know, I was told like, oh, you're doing so great and on the outset everything looked great cuz you're making good money. You know, you're getting promotions like you kind of have, especially as a sophomore engineer, you have a lot of freedom.

You can work from home, all these different things. So people are like, , , envious maybe in a sense of respectful in a sense, because those are the things that were kind of [00:12:00] told to value. But then indeed, when I came home, I was, I mean, I was just depressed and anxious. I had no one really around me to share it with, you know, because all I focused on was getting better , in a physical sense and in a professional sense, not so much in a mental sense.

Like I really neglected that. And, and it's just, as you said, all the things. , , I got rewarded for, um, by the people around me, by society. , were really things that just distracted me from the things that I truly care about, like community and having experiences with other people. And, and so I always told myself like, if I just keep working a little bit more, , then I'll be good enough, or then I'll be in a good enough place to finally have experiences with people or to, you know, to go on that trip or to do this or do that.

And, and at some point, , you know, I just realized like unless I do it now, it's never gonna. , was there

Zach: a specific , moment where you realized this, or was it something that was gradual and then, once you realized it, like what changes did you

Interview-Mitch - USB: make?

I love that. Yeah, so I would say it was gradual, but there was definitely like a seminal [00:13:00] moment. , I lived in, I still live in San Diego now, but back then when that moment occurred, I was living in San Diego. Uh, I read Rich Dad Port app by robbery, Kiosaki, and I've always been very, quite financially savvy.

You know, I, I worked for nasdaq, I got into options trading, all these different things, and then I read Rich, that Poor Dad. I'm like, oh, wow. Like I'm, I'm leaving a lot on the table, like I need to get into real estate and. . I didn't feel comfortable buying in San Diego because I, as most people know, it's very expensive and it would be hard, like I was really going for cashflow.

Like I wanted somewhere where the mortgage I was paying was less than the income I was producing from the rent, and so I couldn't really do that in San Diego, even though. , I had like a gray community here. I decided to look somewhere else. Like I had France. I had stuff I loved, like the ocean surfing.

Just, you know, whenever I had a bad day or anxiety, I could go to the ocean. Just clear my head and I decided to leave all of that behind and move to a place I'd never been before, which was Columbus, Ohio. [00:14:00] Just because the market was affordable, the numbers look good, you know, there's good job growth. Uh, lots of young people moving.

and I bought a duplex there and I lived for free. Like the tenants, their rents, they, it, it covered the mortgage. And , I ended up making really good friends there after a few months. But the first few months I was there were really tough. , like I remember the first night getting to the, , duplex, haven't driven all the way from California and literally sitting in the living room against the wall.

and crying and like I closed my eyes and I could feel like the ocean moving me. You know, when you're on a surfboard, you can feel like just the ocean bobbing you up and down. So anytime I surfed a lot at the time, so anytime I closed my eyes, I felt like that, that up and down motion, it was very soothing.

But of course, you know, closing my eyes and sitting in that living room, it was awful because I realized that the ocean was a thousand miles away [00:15:00] and. I would say that was really the seminal moment where I realized like, oh my gosh, I've given up so much just for, you know, financial gain. And it took me nine months to get back and another four or five months to find a place in San Diego to buy.

So it wasn't like immediately resolved. But I would say it's that experience that really taught me that goal setting is. , but if you don't know why you're doing it, then there's no point in doing it. You know, you gotta know your why before you do the how and the what, and yeah, that was really experience where, where I really learned that.

Jeremy: what role has nature played since then for you? Cause I know for me that's a big, I did a, I did a similar thing for different reasons. It was not the financial gain, but I took a huge leap of. Moved to a place where I'd never really been knew nobody left everything behind, sold everything. , but it was partially cuz I was called to it by the natural surroundings.

And that's, that's, I'm looking outside at two feet of snow and it's [00:16:00] amazing. And, uh, like I've built like the life of my dreams here. , but for, for, so for me, the, the connection to the nature that's right outside my window drives so many of my decisions. So what role has it played for you since then?

Like, it seems like that was part of what led to your big life.

Interview-Mitch - USB: I, I love that. Yeah, absolutely. For me, nature is just as important as community. I would say that's the biggest reason that I wanted to be in San Diego because first of all, the weather, right? Like I want to be able to be outside every single day and do stuff. I don't want to be held back by, you know, rain or anything like that.

, so that was a huge thing. But also being able to go into the mountains like you can snowboard, , and, , rock climb, all these different things in the same day. And , the ocean, the coastline, everything is beautiful. The most beautiful sunsets like every single day.

Uh, you can completely immerse yourself in nature. Like even the city parks are beautiful and I've never, granted, I haven't been everywhere, but I've never been to a city like San Diego, where. [00:17:00] everywhere you go, it's easy to connect with nature,

and that, for me has been an absolute huge reason because like, let's say you have those days, like we'll get those days where you're just completely overstimulated, you know, and you're just like, I can't work, I can't do anything. Like, you can get in your car and be on the beach in eight minutes, you know?

And for me that is just completely non-negotiable. I've learned that I absolutely cannot do without.

Zach: I totally agree with you. I've been San Diego many, many times and every time I go there, I end up on, on Zillow looking for places and, and then going, Hmm, nope. No, no. I, I don't know about this. You know, Jeremy mentioned that he's, got two feet of snow outside his house.

I've got foot of snow outside of my house and it's 30 degrees and it's freezing, you know? What would you say to the person who's listening who. , really wants to be in nature, but I mean, it's cold out, like, you know. What would you say to like, help them, motivate them to really go [00:18:00] get into nature?

Because I'm, I'm with you. Like the more I'm outside, regardless of the weather,

Interview-Mitch - USB: the happier I am. Yeah, I, you know, I think there's always some way to, for example, when I lived in San Diego, or when I lived in Columbus, it got very cold and I just had to find ways to get into nature and still be comfortable.

So, you know, that included, like just dressing up really warm and going to the park or sitting outside with a fire. I would say find whatever works for you, no matter how small. Just, you know, anything that gets you out of the house. and, uh, closer to nature where you're still somewhat comfortable is, I would highly recommend that. I, I don't think, I don't think we were meant to live inside as much as we do.

, and personally it makes me feel like a trapped animal. But I think one really good way to do it as well is combined with exercise. Like, yeah, maybe cold outside, but there's ways to stay warm. Like you've probably been in that situation where you did some CrossFit or something outside. You know, you're gonna get [00:19:00] warm, like you can run his. I've done it. So there's, there's ways to stay warm.

Jeremy: part of what drew you back to San Diego was the community and, and just having people close to you. , this is something that, especially after the last few years that we all went through, uh, adapting to interacting with others again, is a, is a challenge. , , but it's huge, right? Like being connected to others, those relationships are, are massively important for our, our mental and, and emotional health.

Talk about why that's so important.

Interview-Mitch - USB: I think it's important to me because I know what it's like to have the lack of it. As I mentioned, I went into, into software engineering because I wanted a lot of control over my life. I wanted to work from home. I wanted to not be in an office around people. I wanted to not have to go to meetings and just, , stare at a screen and do my work.

, and I thought that was kind of the ideal life for me. But then I realized, It really wasn't. And what I mean by that is, is there's a lot of introverted [00:20:00] people out there that think that zero human contact is great for them. But that's just not how we evolved. You know? That's not how the human species evolved.

Like we were born to need each other to interact with each other. And some people are gonna. A lot of a greater need than other people, but we all do have some of that need. And, you know, a lot of these online solutions like Zoom, , they just don't kind of trigger the same neural circuitry that in-person conversations do.

Like, we've all had like a phone call with our family or, uh, you know, our friends like during the pandemic. And it's, it's not the same as like being in a room with someone and seeing them, smelling them, touching them, and. Especially over the pandemic. So much has shifted to online and people don't meet up in person as much anymore.

It's such a big part of human nature.

To interact with other people. And again, I know that because I went through that transformation, I went from someone who was [00:21:00] spending his whole week, like Monday through Friday working, not interacting with a whole lot of people. Maybe seeing one or two friends on the weekends, but not a whole lot because again, I was prioritizing self-study and all these different things like reading , overseeing friends.

and I went to someone who completely turned that around and who now tries and sees his friends like a couple times, at least during the week and also on the weekends. And I just know, even as a very introverted person, I just know how much it changed my life around and I know how much happier I wake up and how much more energy I have and how much more I care about, , just the simple fact of being.

and I feel that these interactions in-person interactions are just so, , underrated by people. Yeah.

Jeremy: something I've wrestl. My wife is constantly telling me like, I've gotta get out and I gotta make friends. I gotta, especially because we're in a new community, so I don't really know a lot of people, but I get super overwhelmed with social interaction. So this is, this has been sort of a blessing for me where I'm like, I, like I live in a super isolated place.

There's not a lot of [00:22:00] people around here. And so I can choose when to put myself out there , but you know, when I know there's a few days ahead of like, oh, we've gotta go to this party, or I've gotta interact with this large group of people. , I'm always like, I, there's this sort of anxiety that starts to build of like, oh man, I gotta do, I gotta do this.

I gotta save up the energy for that. And then I know like, I'm gonna need time to decompress on the other side of it. So I'm definitely one that has, has seen, you know, the benefit from this. But at the same time, I definitely recognize that. When I go too long without interacting with other people, just outside of my immediate family, there's definitely negative effects where like you start to sort of feel like a ghost in the world and like, does, does anybody even know I'm here?

This is weird. So yeah, I

Interview-Mitch - USB: Yeah. And it, I think it's totally okay to say no too, you know? Essentially saying yes is saying no to a lot of other things. You know, you're saying no even if you're saying yes. So, you know, there's a lot of these, you know, what you said really resonates with me about like, it's, it's hard to especi, especially like in a larger crowd.

I mean, it's [00:23:00] exhausting for me by the time I get home. Like I need like a couple of days to recover. And I, I mean, people always feel bad about saying no, but it's totally okay to not do something if, like, you just don't want to. It's your time. You can do whatever you want. You don't owe anyone anything.



Zach: totally agree with that. I, I say no all day long. It's crazy. , I, I wanna shift gears just a little bit here. I've got a, a question that, is right from my heart because, at my day job I manage, you know, teams of engineers, software developers, , so I am very interested .

In this topic with you? I would love to hear, you know, what lessons you've learned as, you know, a software engineer, , that apply to life. I'm just thinking about things like, Hey, let's deploy to production multiple times a day instead of once a month. Right. That's more sustainable change.

So I'd love to hear your perspective on those things that you've learned in the software engineering world that also applied to

Interview-Mitch - USB: life. so the first thing I really learned that's huge for me is about iteration, about [00:24:00] you don't have to get it right the first time around. You know, a lot of, I think tech related people, a lot of people in general are very like perfectionist, but perfect is the enemy of good enough.

Just do good enough and then iterate and get a little better every time. Everything around our life makes. Believe that failure is bad. Like when we're kids, we go to school and we get grades back and it's terrible if we don't pass.

Like it's, it's not a learning opportunity. It's not presented as a learning opportunity. You know, same way in movies like people, you know, the main characters are always just succeeding right away. It's all, our whole culture is based around the idea that failure is a bad. and in software development, it's really the other way.

Ar I would say it's the other way around. It's all about iteration. It's about embracing failure, it's about embracing bugs and just fixing them and saying like, okay, you know, here we have a prototype. This is our first iteration. Uh, we're gonna keep what works and we're gonna redo what doesn't work. And failure is seen as a lesson, as an opportunity for growth. Having that mindset, [00:25:00] like having put that in my own personal life has been one of the biggest , drivers for change cuz I didn't used to be like that. And the other one is the retrospective where you take your time to actually learn from those failures and reflect on them. So a lot of the times, I think I say this from past experiences as well, when we try something and we fill.

We don't really want to get uncomfortable. So instead of saying, , I did this wrong, or instead of taking ownership responsibility, we kind of project it onto the outer world or not someone else. Because if we blame someone else, then we don't have to change anything. And our brain likes that because our brain likes to conserve energy.

It likes to be lazy. So if it's not something that we did wrong, then we don't have to change anything. And that's just easier. And I think a big thing I learned from software engineering is, , a computer always does what it's told. So if you do something and you get a certain output, [00:26:00] then it's not the computer's fault, it's your fault.

So you start with programming and you're like, ah, this stupid, this stupid device is not doing what I wanted to do. And then you start realizing it's like, well, actually, I'm not telling it what to do in the proper. and it kind of changes your outlook on, you know, work ethics and that can translate to, you know, personal development as well.

It's like, well, maybe something isn't working because I'm not going about it the right way. And yeah, that, that's been another huge lesson for me and something that I talk to people about all the time.

Jeremy: That's definitely something I've been, , learning more and more than where I've been coaching people professionally for the last few months, is just the amount of overthinking and worrying, and I've gotta get it perfect before I try. Like all these just huge walls that we build for ourselves instead of just, just go, just try it and know that it doesn't work, rather than wondering what if it doesn't, because if you do [00:27:00] it, and it did, , then you can just make it even better.

Or if it didn't, you can figure out why and do it even better. So that just, this is something I've been doing my entire life is all the reasons why it's probably not gonna work. And oh, that's, that's hard. That's for other people. I'm not good enough. I'm never gonna, whatever. You gotta just try it and, and see what works.

It's the, the iteration of life is definitely, uh, a learning lesson. If people have , gotten any value from this, where can they learn more about you and follow your podcast and, and all the things you do.

Interview-Mitch - USB: Awesome. Yeah, so I blog about a lot of topics we talked about today. , it's called the debug life.com, where, uh, we dug, debug everything about life. And I also have the same handle on Instagram, the debug life, uh, and on social media I share a lot of, of my content, but I also share. . , a lot of my personal life, like the activities I'm up to, , and kind of like how I create a meaningful life for myself and the communities, for myself.

I share my morning routine. I get like up at 6:00 AM and I jump in like 47 degree ice water and do all these different things. So like I kind of share that, uh, helps with accountability for [00:28:00] me and it helps other show other people like, , what kind of impact it can have. So I really like to show on their the good and the bad, I would say, And then, uh, yeah, the blogs are everything we've talked about today, and if people, uh, have any questions, they're welcome to shoot me a message.

Message. I love interacting with people in regards to this conversation. And, uh, yeah, that's the best way to find me.

Jeremy: And then finally, uh, any, any closing words you wanna leave us with?

Interview-Mitch - USB: Stop treating failure as like the end, you know, that's the biggest takeaway I can give people. So many friends, so many people I talk to, you know, you see them feel and you just see the pain on their face. , for me, when I feel it puts the biggest smile on my face. Failure is not the end. It is the best lesson you can get. It's sometimes even better than feedback from other people. It's the best type of feedback you can get, so embrace it and every time the sting is gonna get a little bit less.

Jeremy: Oh, thanks to Mitch Hankins. He's the host of the Debug Life podcast. You can find links to him and his work in the show notes for this episode@thefitmess.com. and Zack, a lot of familiar themes in there. One that I know is near and [00:29:00] dear to your heart. And it is, it starts with just questioning what you believe, questioning the things that you hold true, uh, in your own life about yourself.

Zach: Absolutely. That's, I mean, I was telling somebody earlier today, I was like, I love it when I have the realization that I'm wrong about something. I absolutely love it. Most of us. Realize we're wrong about something and we keep fighting to be right, or we go look for evidence just to be right. And I love being wrong, man, because that, that means I can shift my perspective.

That means I can change things.

Jeremy: But also what I find fascinating is the amount of times that hanging onto that belief leads to so much extra suffering. When if you can just question it and realize that you're wrong about that, things can get a lot easier.

Zach: Yeah, be wrong and move on.

Jeremy: Right. What's, what's the, uh, what's the acronym? Fmo. Fuck it. Move on. That, that's, that's one I, I've heard far too many times in my life.

Zach: Hmm. I enjoy that one.

Rolls off the tongue really nicely.

Jeremy: Right.

Zach: [00:30:00] But as you're questioning all of your beliefs, one thing that you really do need to know, and I, I know this, everyone says it, and everyone rolls their eyes whenever you hear it, but you really do need to know your why. Like if you don't know what's important to you, what's driving you, what's keeping you going, nothing's gonna matter too much to you, and you're gonna fail.

You're gonna fall, you're gonna do all the things that are.

Jeremy: And that's, that's a big concept I think for people to wrap their heads around. I know it has been for me at different points in my life. I had a very small example today of, and, and I mean microscopic, but I, I, I thought of it and I wanted to share it here last night. Get home from vacation. Lots of unpacking things to do. One of the things I made sure I did was, to program my coffee to be made first thing in the morning. Cuz I've been on the road for a couple weeks. I've had to go down to the restaurant to get it or at some shitty, you know, Keurig or something in the room. I wanted to wake up to coffee being made and when I woke up this [00:31:00] morning, the coffee was made and I just went, this is a, a micro example.

Of everything that we talk about. I didn't want to make the coffee last night. I wanted to sit on my ass cuz I was tired cuz I traveled for like 10 hours to get home. But I made the coffee and this morning I went, Hey yesterday me, thanks buddy. Way to go. That made my day awesome because the coffee is ready to go right now.

I didn't have to lift a finger. This is amazing. Thank you. Yesterday, me and I just went, how many times is the me in the. Hating life. Miserable. I don't wanna be doing this, this sucks. But I want 10 years from now me to go, Hey, 10 years ago, me, way to go. Thanks for lifting. That dumbbell that day made you a little bit stronger to, to be ready for it today.

So just that little example, right? Like it, it's meaningless, but it made my morning to put in a little bit of effort yesterday so that today could be better.

Zach: I'm gonna get you a t-shirt with a picture of you on it that says, thank you 10 year ago, me.[00:32:00]

Jeremy: I gotta, I gotta feel like less of a cow before I can wear that and, and feel okay about it though.

, and speaking of lessons learned, you know, while I was on this trip, I was, uh, I, I found myself in a situation where, you know, I'm, I'm not a big social guy. I don't, I don't love being out in crowds and around a lot of people and, and doing things, but I, this has happened to me a few times and, and on vacation there was one of these where I realized I'm done.

I don't wanna be here. I've done what I said I was gonna do, I'm gonna go now. And it was so empowering to just feel like, you know what? You're an adult. You can just make this choice. And if it hurts people's feelings, fuck them. Like they, they've got their shit to deal with. My shit is I'm done here and I'm moving on.

So like, having the, the, the power to say no. Like when, when the expectation, the social expectation, the the people you're around want you to be something other than what you are or you're somehow expected to be something other than what you. Having the ability and the power to just say, Nope. Not [00:33:00] even like, no, because I wish I could, but that would be nice.

I, yeah, but you know, I got a thing I gotta, Paul, I gotta get up. Or how about just, no, this is my limit. I'm done. No.

Zach: Absolutely agree. the power of of just saying no, it can be incredibly freeing. Like, you don't have to make a an excuse, you don't have to worry about the message coming off wrong. You, it's, it, it's just done and over with. I even heard no this morning from somebody else that I know is working on saying.

Jeremy: Mm-hmm.

Zach: Like making sure that they're saying no when they should be saying no. And this no was actually disappointing to me because I was asking a question

Jeremy: right.

Zach: and I was so proud of this person for saying no

Jeremy: Right.

Zach: and disappointed at the same time. But it's so powerful when you can actually get there and say no to things.

I, I cannot tell you how freeing it is, and I'm proud of anyone who can actually do it. [00:34:00] It's hard. It's really fucking hard those first 10, 15, 20 times you do it cuz you feel like an asshole saying it.

Jeremy: Especially if you come from like people pleaser backgrounds. Like, I, like, I know I do. I think you suffer from that a little bit. Like you, you want everybody to like, you, you wanna be the good guy. You wanna be the, you know, the star of the show, but sometimes you gotta say, no,

Zach: Yep. Absolutely. And Jeremy with that, I'm, I'm done with this

Jeremy: I'm done too. We've had enough. That's it. No more.

Zach: We're out. We're done.

Jeremy: I do hope you'll say, I do hope you'll say yes to our newsletter, though. You can sign up for that and get all the bonus content. We usually have bonus clips in there, all kinds of extra information in there for you. We publish that every week.

You can sign up for it@thefitmess.com. That's where we'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Thanks so much for listening.

Zach: See everyone? [00:35:00]

Mitch HankinsProfile Photo

Mitch Hankins

Mitch Hankins is a cloud-certified full-stack developer who speaks to professionals struggling to find meaning in life. He has developed his expertise by working with some of the largest organizations in the US, including Nasdaq and the US Military. With over a decade of professional experience, Mitch noticed he and his colleagues often struggled with feelings of isolation. This often led to an unfulfilled life where complacency and loneliness were the norms. Mitch can help anyone with feelings of loneliness to experience a fuller and more connected life.